[humilities]

---

Regional Swiss with an occasional partner, we play pretty vanilla 2/1. Regarding opening bids, we open all 12s and decent unbalanced 11s; we do not open balanced 11s.

Do you consider this an invitational hand (our bid for this is 3D) or a GF hand (2H 4sf followed by 3D)? Obviously this is better than it's face value of 11, is it good enough to force 5D? Will you pass 3NT?

Possibly relevant details:
- we haven't discussed 1444, so I don't know if he'd bid this way with that shape
- I'm pretty sure he would not bid this way with any 1345
- If you bid 2H (4SF) you cannot get out in 4D after a failed 3NT attempt (should you want to do so). You are 100% game forced.

Thanks for your input.

[mgoetze]

AAK is great but we do have a balanced hand and yet I can easily imagine 3NT playing poorly opposite some minimum openers. 5♦ looks like a good target but we still need partner to have a little something extra, so it's 3♦ for me.

[mycroft]

Is partner going to pass a flat 14 or an 1=3=4=5 15 when you invite? Better GF then. My partners won't.

[NickRW]

Dunno. If you fg you'll find a few games you wouldn't otherwise. If you invite you'll avoid a few bad games. Personally I'd invite - but it is extremely close.

[whereagles]

Invite. If pard accepts, I think I'll steer away from 3NT.

[Free]

+1 for the invite

[humilities]

OP here, thanks all for the feedback, I too felt this was an invite.

Followup question: when partner jumps to 5D over 3D, what are your thoughts about raising?

[TylerE]

Red @ IMPs? Why haven't I bid 3N yet? Unless partner is opening a lot of really bad hands (which he shouldn't in 2nd) we should be making at least the 32% of the time or so we need to to show an IMP gain in the long term.

[mgoetze]

humilities, on 2014-November-10, 13:44, said:

OP here, thanks all for the feedback, I too felt this was an invite.

Followup question: when partner jumps to 5D over 3D, what are your thoughts about raising?

If partner wanted my input he could have asked for it. Pass.

[masse24]

humilities, on 2014-November-10, 13:44, said:

when partner jumps to 5D over 3D, what are your thoughts about raising?

The thought would not cross my mind. I have described my hand.
If partner wanted to go slamming, he could have initiated a slam conversation. He didn't.

[mikestar13]

humilities, on 2014-November-10, 13:44, said:

OP here, thanks all for the feedback, I too felt this was an invite.

Followup question: when partner jumps to 5D over 3D, what are your thoughts about raising?

Obvious pass. If partner accepts we are in a game force, so he can bid 4♦ with slam interest. 5♦ is a sign off opposite an invitation, as 3NT would have been.
3NT should be OK if partner bids it, he won't do so without good heart cards, as the lead is marked on this bidding.
Partner can accept by bidding 3♥ if he needs heart help, which you will deny by bidding 4♦/5♦.
Note that 4♦ by you (a limited hand) in this sequence can be passed.

[the hog]

3D for me. If pd bids 5 I will pass.

[the hog]

TylerE, on 2014-November-10, 13:57, said:

Red @ IMPs? Why haven't I bid 3N yet? Unless partner is opening a lot of really bad hands (which he shouldn't in 2nd) we should be making at least the 32% of the time or so we need to to show an IMP gain in the long term.

"Why haven't I bid 3N yet?"
Because pd has shown 9 cards in the ms and the H lead is pinpointed. This seems like a good reason not to bid 3NT.

[Free]

humilities, on 2014-November-10, 13:44, said:

OP here, thanks all for the feedback, I too felt this was an invite.

Followup question: when partner jumps to 5D over 3D, what are your thoughts about raising?

I invited, partner accepted, there's nothing else to think about.

[mcphee]

I feel that bidding 2H 4th suit is a massive overbid, it is not even a close choice IMHO.
3D is what this is worth.

[NickRW]

humilities, on 2014-November-10, 13:44, said:

Followup question: when partner jumps to 5D over 3D, what are your thoughts about raising?

To be fair, I'd think "gosh I've got a good invite with controls" and think about it for a second. Then sanity would prevail. As others have pointed out, there were heaps of other things partner could have done other than pass or sign off in game.

[rmnka447]

TylerE, on 2014-November-10, 13:57, said:

Red @ IMPs? Why haven't I bid 3N yet? Unless partner is opening a lot of really bad hands (which he shouldn't in 2nd) we should be making at least the 32% of the time or so we need to to show an IMP gain in the long term.

The first priority at IMPs is to bid the safest game when bidding game.

As the Hog says, the ♥ lead is pinpointed. Partner has at least 8+ minor cards (and probably 9+ a good part of the time). That doesn't leave much room for many ♥s. If the opponents hold 9+ ♥ and your side has a single ♥ stopper, your side will have to have 9 running tricks to avoid being set. Do you see anything in your hand that makes you think that might be the case? Additionally, if you bid 3 NT, the lead will be through partner's stopper whatever it may be.

If you invite with 3 ♦ and partner bids 3 NT, you'll sit. Then, at least a ♥ lead will be coming toward partner's stopper. On a good day, that may even allow partner to create a 2nd stopper or potential 2nd stopper.

If partner bids 3 ♥ over 3 ♦ looking for ♥ help, you'll retreat to 4 ♦ and partner can decide whether to bid the ♦ game or not.

Then, you've given it your best shot.

[humilities]

OP again - thanks all for the feedback. I bid the hand as suggested here (3D, pass) however my partner's argument was twofold:

1. It seemed a bad idea to him to make a slam try with only one keycard opposite an invitational hand
2. With three keycards opposite a jump to 5D, how could 6 not have a decent play? (obviously he thought he could make 5 missing all those cards)

His argument is logical, which is why I thought I'd get some feedback. Thanks!

his hand, fwiw,
x
KJ
AQxxx
KQJ10x

Obviously I could construct a 5D bid for him that has no play for 6 (spade void and Qxx of H or some such) but I think most 5D bids will have a good play for 6D, so I see his point...

This post has been edited by humilities: 2014-November-11, 07:06

[PhilKing]

There is a lot of really impressive hand evaluation in this thread. Game is excellent opposite some pretty ordinary minimums, eg:

♠x ♥Kxx ♦Axxxx ♣KQxx

Partner will be wowed by your judgement when 12 tricks roll in.

And game is virtually solid opposite a monster such as:

♠x ♥xxx ♦AQxxx ♣KQJx

It's not exactly farfetched to assume partner is suitable, since he is pretty likely to have a stiff spade if you think about it. Hands such as:

♠Kx ♥Qx ♦Axxxx ♣KJxx

will generally just rebid 1NT, and with a 3154 minimum, partner raises spades. Give partner an extra length card somewhere and game will generally be better still. ♠x ♥Kx ♦AJ98x♣KJxxx.

And if anyone cares whether these are just constructions off the top of my head, they are not. They all occurred in the FIRST TEN HANDS of a short simulation on the playbridge generator. It's a clear game force imo, and then there is no need to double-cross partner later.

[humilities]

PhilKing, on 2014-November-11, 07:07, said:

There is a lot of really impressive hand evaluation in this thread. Game is excellent opposite some pretty ordinary minimums, eg:

Dammit Phil, I was just starting to feel good about my bidding. I don't need you and your fancy "data" ruining my comforting cloak of conformity and conventional wisdom!