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Forcing bid isn't forcing?

#1 User is offline   AyunuS 

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Posted 2014-October-30, 04:14

http://tinyurl.com/mn579h7

It said forcing to 3N, I bid 3D, and then it passes. And it has enough points opposite a 1NT opener that I think it should be willing to go for a game here. Both 5D and 3NT make.
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#2 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2014-October-30, 07:28

The description of 3 is also strange: "2-5"?
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#3 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2014-October-30, 10:34

I don't know what the other responses mean (hopefully better described than the 3 explanation), but maybe you need to bid 2NT, 3NT or a major suit cue bid to get GIB to bid again. You have opened an off shape 1NT so GIB probably can't figure out that 5 is going to have a good play when you didn't rebid NT so if you don't have the majors stopped, and 3NT probably won't be a good contract without a stopper in at least one of the majors.
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#4 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2014-October-30, 10:40

View Postjohnu, on 2014-October-30, 10:34, said:

I don't know what the other responses mean (hopefully better described than the 3 explanation), but maybe you need to bid 2NT, 3NT or a major suit cue bid to get GIB to bid again.

But, the description of 2 says "forcing to 3N". Once you've been told that, you have a right to expect that partner will not pass anything lower than 3N.
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#5 User is offline   guinnypoo 

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Posted 2014-November-02, 20:23

First thing to note is that "forcing to game" actually means "forcing to game if it's 3 NT or 4 Major, not necessarily 5 Minor". At least that's how 2/1 is usually played and I feel is a fairly common agreement. Note the amount of space that BBO offers to alert bids is quite short. Would not be room to put "forcing to 3 NT unless we can't play NT and if we're slightly too weak for 5 of a minor we might want to stop in 3-4". Perhaps the most accurate description of the bid would be "Usually Game Forcing". I realize this says forcing to 3 NT, but realize that there is zero benefit to bidding above 3d if you don't plan to bid 3 NT or 5d, so even in a "forced to game" or "forced to 3 NT" auction, it's better to stop in 3 minor if you know you won't go to 5, as it's harder to get set in 3d than 4d and you get the same amount of points for the tricks you make whether you bid 3 or 4.

What I think happened is robot thinks "We have enough points for game in 3NT (you had 25-27 confirmed HCP) if you have a spade stopper or 5 in a minor if you have a maximum for your 1 NT opener. You choose the contract for us." When opponents bid Cappelletti they show both majors (at least 5-4, usually 5-5 or better), partner is short in both majors so it's nearly certain you have either a double fit in the minors, or a long fit in one of them (9+). 2S is then a cuebid, asking you to bid 3 NT with a spade stopper, 4C or 4D with an invitational hand (16+), 5 minor with a maximum (possibly the full 17 with a doubleton), thus he was expecting the auction to go to at least 3 NT right then and there. Your 3D bid showed to the robot that you had an absolute minimum for your 1 NT opener, possibly even 14 points, no spade stopper, and weren't interested in game in the slightest. So robot passes.

This can be a danger of opening 1 NT with a singleton. Across from a solid 10-12 count with the right spades, you could be cold for 6d, at least 5d, but after opening 1 NT it can become impossible to convince partner that you have extra playing strength in a trump contract. I would definitely open this hand 1D, if partner can't respond with any bid (even in competition) you're not missing game anyway. I think if you had opened 1D here, things would have worked out much better, more options to better define your hand. In particular the singleton As. Any time you open 1 NT, you've pretty much described the strength of your hand and should expect your partner to make the call to what level you should be playing in, he knows way more about your combined strength than you do. That's what you attempted to do here, but the problem is you lied twice about the strength of your hand. You showed 15-17 points, which would be an accurate bid if you had a balanced hand which you do not. Robot says "OK with my 10 points that puts us in 3 NT game if he has stoppers and 5 minor game if he has a maximum for his 1 NT opener, but most likely part score in a minor if missing stoppers", so he asks you to choose based on the quality and distribution of your hand, and you chose the weak bid, 3D.

I think you were just trying to establish your suit and leave space for bidding, but this was not necessary and misled the robot. Robot knew about how many points you have, that you had a sure fit in at least one minor, possibly 9 cards, and was looking for stoppers or extra something to continue bidding, and your 3D minimum rebid showed none of those. You opened 1 NT (immediately limits your hand), it was a competitive auction, both sides have fits, your side already had a ton of information about EXACTLY how many points you had. Not a time to pussyfoot around and assume you'll have all day to describe your hand, if you have extras you need to show them quickly, if you continue minimum bidding your partner will assume you have a minimum, since there's already a ceiling to your hand. Also remember that as opener, your new suit bids are not forcing, his are. In general, responder does not need to jump bid in a 1 NT auction since he knows how many points partner has and can continue making forcing bids until the contract is placed. Opener needs to jump to alert responder that he has extras or a maximum for his 1 NT.

Perhaps most importantly, any time you distort your hand with your bids (like opening 1 NT with a singleton) you need to make up for it later or at least not be surprised that your partner places the bid at the wrong level, especially in a NT contract where responder typically places the contract. If your hand was what you told the robot you had (4-4-3-2 instead of 5-4-3-1 with no stop in spades), the robot's pass would be totally correct. Robots are especially bad at this. They will interpret anything you bid as its technical handbook meaning, even in competition, without any thought that you might be slightly distorting things or making a natural bid. This can lead it, for example, to override your suit preference 3 times en route to the 7 level where you go down 2 tricks doubled. Or you can be attempting to compete to the 4 level, but the meaning of the 4 level bid there to the bot was a 20-21 point hand so it immediately raises to 6 or 7 thinking your side has 35 points.

I'm still curious why robot chose 2S cuebid over 2H cuebid since he had a stopper in neither suit and LHO showed both majors. Perhaps because he had more spades, he reasoned it was more likely you'd have 3+ hearts and it would be likelier that you had a stopper there. At any rate, you had both suits stopped (all, in fact) so should have comfortably jumped to 3 NT, even with your singleton.

When playing with robots, any time you highlight over their bid and it shows nothing about suits (e.g. in this case it is a new suit bid but shows nothing about the spade count, only about points) it's an artificial or cue bid. Try to think about why your partner would make that bid, often they're looking for a stopper for NT, but it can also be a singleton/void with game or slam aspirations if you already have an implied fit, or even mean nothing at all and just be a "I want to bid something, but don't have any better bid" FSF bid. In this case after your 1 NT bid and the opponents showing both majors, partner cue bids to show that he wants to play in 3 NT if you have stoppers, 3 or 4 of a minor if you are weak, or 5 of a minor if you are strong.

TL;DR - robot partner told you you have enough points for NT game but thought you were probably just a hair light for a minor suit game unless you were extra strong; he asked you if you had a spade stopper, you said no and showed a minimum by bidding 3D so it passed (knowing it was a fit but expecting to not make 5). Basically what johnu said.
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#6 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-November-02, 22:43

I thought almost forcing to game meant you might stop in 4 of a minor without stoppers and without points for game.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#7 User is offline   AyunuS 

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Posted 2014-November-07, 05:54

I agree with a lot of that, but the bug still stands. Even if you open 1NT with a 13-card suit, if it makes a bid that is forcing to 3N, then it should keep bidding as though the bidding is forcing to 3N. I.E. it should still follow that part of the description. Either the description should be changed so that it doesn't say it's forcing to 3N, or it should actually be forcing to 3N. And I noticed on the link I posted it's maybe too hard to see some of the description, but it also did say on my bid, "forcing to 3N." I remember it.
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