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New suit or support II: now with Kaplan inversion

Poll: New suit or support II: now with Kaplan inversion (20 member(s) have cast votes)

Support straight away, or show your 5 spades

  1. 1N (6 votes [30.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.00%

  2. 2H (14 votes [70.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 70.00%

  3. Other (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 10:59

I was quite surprised by the responses to whereagles' thread here, but was persuaded by the responses to change my view. I'm curious what the responses are if we take the same hand...



... but specify that we're playing Kaplan inversion such that 1 shows 0-4 and, for the sake of argument, 0-11 points, and 1N shows 5+s and 6+ points.

The same arguments for 2 still theoretically apply, but with the opportunity to show your 5th spade, do you still eschew it?



***

Separately, but while I'm considering Kaplan inversion, how do those people who play it play the auction 1 P 2? With many partners I'd play this as a weak jump shift, but that seems to lose much of its value here - especially if you play Gazzilli over responder's 1N bid.
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#2 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 11:07

Yes, def bid 2H. The main feature of your hand is not that you have 5 spades, it's that you have 3 card support for partner. If you don't show it now, you cannot show it later (unless you massively overbid). It's really important to tell your partner early on when you have a fit, that is basically what bidding is all about, trying to find a fit and when you find one letting partner know.

Really the only reason to not show a fit early on is if you are out of range to do it immediately, for instance if you had KJT9x xxx xx xxx you might be too weak for 1H-2H (depending on your style) so in that case you would bid 1S (or 1N KI). If you have AT98x Txx x AQxx you have a 3 card limit raise so if you don't have a way to show that directly you bid spades then jump in hearts. But if you are in range for 1H 2H you should always do that rather than bidding spades.
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#3 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 12:19

The only change between this problem and the prior problem is the way you show spades. The basic idea - that you should support immediately with real support - remains the same.

Parenthetically, if one plays Kaplan inversion, the 1 bid should show 0-3 spades and the usual range for a forcing NT. I have no idea where you get the idea that it shows 0-4 spades and 0-11 HCP.Correction - I see a reference on Bridge Winners referring to the 1 bid as 0-10 HCP and 0-4 spades. But that is in the context of Fantunes, where all one bids are forcing, so all responses may have zero HCP. As for the reason for 0-4 spades rather than 0-3 spades, I did not find that.
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#4 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 12:31

Definitely bid 1NT. You can always bid or pass 2 next time round.

I play a Gazzilli, and the sequence 1 (p) 2 is the 13+ 4 card support bid (J2N type) as we play it. All spade bids in reply to a 1 are not natural, with 1 = "forcing NT", 2 = 13+ 4 card support, 3 = mini-splinter in unspecified minor, 4 = ace asking in hearts. After heart agreement, 3 = serious/non-serious 3NT.
If partner bids spades over my 1NT I will be delighted the play is in the 5-3 fit in dummy's long suit, rather than a 5-3 fit in declarer's.
With Gazzilli. this hand is strong enough for a "positive 2" over 2.

Incidentally, using these meanings for spades, for us the sequence 1 1NT, 'something' 2 is 6 card 11+, because the sequence 1 1, 'something' 2 is 6 card 6-10. Useful to have 2 ways to bid 2.
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#5 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 12:32

View PostArtK78, on 2014-October-29, 12:19, said:

The only change between this problem and the prior problem is the way you show spades. The basic idea - that you should support immediately with real support - remains the same.

Parenthetically, if one plays Kaplan inversion, the 1 bid should show 0-3 spades and the usual range for a forcing NT. I have no idea where you get the idea that it shows 0-4 spades and 0-11 HCP.Correction - I see a reference on Bridge Winners referring to the 1 bid as 0-10 HCP and 0-4 spades. But that is in the context of Fantunes, where all one bids are forcing, so all responses may have zero HCP. As for the reason for 0-4 spades rather than 0-3 spades, I did not find that.


I play KI and play 1N is 5+ spades and 1S is 0-4. The reason is it's pretty sweet to show 5 spades immediately, and you can still find 4-4 spade fits over 1S pretty easily playing KI (there are a variety of schemes but we play over 1S that 1N is bal or clubs, 2C is diamonds, 2D is 6+ hearts, and 2H is 4S. Supposedly it is better to play 1N is bal or diamonds and 2C is clubs). To me that is the main reason we play it.

When NV I generally say 0-12 (0-11 in a std context but I have only played it in precision). That is because I believe esp white/red it is always right to respond, even moreso true in precision but I believe that in std also.
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#6 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 12:32

double post
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#7 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 12:38

View PostArtK78, on 2014-October-29, 12:19, said:

Parenthetically, if one plays Kaplan inversion, the 1 bid should show 0-3 spades and the usual range for a forcing NT. I have no idea where you get the idea that it shows 0-4 spades and 0-11 HCP.Correction - I see a reference on Bridge Winners referring to the 1 bid as 0-10 HCP and 0-4 spades. But that is in the context of Fantunes, where all one bids are forcing, so all responses may have zero HCP. As for the reason for 0-4 spades rather than 0-3 spades, I did not find that.

I've always played 1 as fewer than 5 spades, 1NT = 5+ spades. Certainly before I'd heard of fantunes, and my one openings are not forcing. It is advantageous to be able to describe or deny 5 spades in one go, or 6 in two goes - see above - and that is sufficient reason for me. You do need a way of finding a 4-4 spade fit, if that is your objection to it, but this can be done.

(Edit - posted at the same time as PhantomSac's, but my typing is slower !)

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2014-October-29, 12:41

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#8 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 12:42

I've never seen it any other way. Bridgeguys also say 1N shows five: http://www.bridgeguy.../granville.html
And this MIT article: http://web.mit.edu/m...y_Nightmare.pdf

I think the idea is it allows you to find 5-3 (and occasionally 5-2) fits reliably when you're going to settle at a low level - after 1H 1S, opener's 1N typically shows 4 spades. I've tried it both ways to some extent - showing 5 has produced better results so far.

(edit - pre-empted twice!)
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#9 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 14:16

Back in the day (i.e, late 1970s, early 1980s) my regular partner introduced me to the idea of reversing the meaning of 1 and 1NT in response to a 1 opening bid. I don't know where he found it - I don't believe he referred to it by name. In any event, we adopted it without any further discussion and it worked just fine.

There was no further restriction on the definition of the 1 response or the 1NT response - it was just that every time the normal response was 1 we bid 1NT, and every time the normal response was 1NT we bid 1. Both were treated as forcing.

The main point seemed to be that when partner had a forcing 1NT response to a 1 opening bid, we could play 1NT (and higher level notrump contracts) from opener's side. We lost nothing when responder had spades EXCEPT the ability to play in 1NT and the ability to play higher level NT contracts from opener's side.

Until today, I was not aware that there was anything more to the Kaplan Inversion than this.
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#10 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 18:32

If 1NT shows 5 spades I think it's worth it to bid it. If opener can scramble a raise, we'll have an easy game invite.
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#11 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2014-October-30, 02:27

This is an awkward hand for 4-card majors: if partner is 4-4 or 4-3 in the majors, you need to show your spades to find your longest fit. If not, you probably just want to play in the likely 8-card heart fit.

Playing KI implies 5-card majors, so raising to 2 is best, because it tells partner far more about my hand in one bid than does 1NT. This is particularly important if the next hand is about to compete. Even if the auction is uncontested, say 1-1NT-2-2, partner will expect a doubleton heart (or a very poor hand with 3). If we bid the same way with this hand, it's harder for partner to judge.
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#12 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-October-30, 06:43

View PostArtK78, on 2014-October-29, 14:16, said:

The main point seemed to be that when partner had a forcing 1NT response to a 1 opening bid, we could play 1NT (and higher level notrump contracts) from opener's side. We lost nothing when responder had spades EXCEPT the ability to play in 1NT and the ability to play higher level NT contracts from opener's side.

Until today, I was not aware that there was anything more to the Kaplan Inversion than this.


Yeah the real objective is to find all 5-3 and 4-4 spade fits, without playing in any 4-3 spade fits (though you may play in some 5-2 heart fits or play in 4-3 spade fit by choice to avoid the 5-2 fit). It's a competitor against flannery for this purpose.

You also get to play 1NT more often, because responder gets to show 'I have a weak NT with a 5 card spade suit' most frequent response and then opener can safely pass. This means you are less behind the standard bidders who have the auction 1H-1NT as well. Our judgement about when to try 2C isn't that hot though, our basic philosophy is pass opener's 1NT rebid a lot.

I'm not sure it makes a big difference, but the finding of 4-4 and 5-3 spade fits is helpful, especially as I think 5-3 fits are the most common.
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#13 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2014-October-30, 09:00

View Postjallerton, on 2014-October-30, 02:27, said:

... Even if the auction is uncontested, say 1-1NT-2-2, partner will expect a doubleton heart (or a very poor hand with 3). If we bid the same way with this hand, it's harder for partner to judge.

The OP mentioned Gazzilli, and if this is in play then depending on your agreed strength requirements for the 2 bid, this need not be a problem if it needs a 2 from opener to make game.
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#14 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2014-October-31, 18:36

I play KI and would still raise to 2H, nothing has really changed from the other thread.
We play constructive raises but with KJ109x xxx xx xxx we would respond 1S, not 1NT. Responding 1NT then giving preference to hearts is somewhat undefined in strength. Responding 1S I can then show (if necessary) a very weak hand next round via some artificial rebid scheme.
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#15 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2014-November-01, 08:41

There is a monstrous difference between 2h and 1n playing this way--while both bids are
non forcing, in standard at least, the 1s bid is forcing allowing responder to at least
show preference if not support in all future sequences. Under the OP conditions a majority
of partials will be played in non heart contracts (including a fair number of 52 spade fits).
This seems completely wrong since the main reason for bidding is the search for an 8+
card major suit fit:)
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#16 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-November-02, 12:16

Isn't 1-1NT (5+ spades) forcing in KI?
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#17 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-November-02, 17:40

Yeah. You don't normally have another bid.
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#18 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-November-02, 23:55

View PostJinksy, on 2014-November-02, 17:40, said:

Yeah. You don't normally have another bid.


It doesn't have to be. we put the GF w/spades in the 1S relay. This is plus whenever partner isn't GF with spades, and not very attractive after the auction 1H-1S-1NT-2S - we combine this with 1H-2S as a old school Soloway jump shift so that the 2S rebid is limited to 13-16ish, which makes the auctions a lot more palatable (you can often bid 4S directly).

I'm not sure this is best, but 1NT being NF has big plus points given that we open all 11 counts so 1H-1NT is a common auction.
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