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on average, how well should people score with GIBS ?

#1 User is offline   onoway 

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Posted 2014-October-04, 22:07

Playing only with and against GIBS, what sort of average score should a solid intermediate expect to get over, say 20 hands? Would 20 hands be enough, and if not, how many to get a fairly valid assessment?

Put this here because I didn't want anyone to get depressed or angry or defensive. And sometimes, especially for the diehards who insist on playing on the download version, the GIBS appear to do some very odd things. However, on average, how well should an intermediate player expect to do? Would there be an expectation that they would do better with MPs or imps, or no difference?
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#2 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2014-October-04, 23:15

You are never playing "only with and against GIBs". GIBs may be the only other three players at your table, but you are competing against other humans sitting in your seat at other tables. Whether those other tables have only GIBs in the other seats also depends on whether you are in a tourney or not.

So, say you are in a tourney, then how well you should perform depends on (relative to yourself) the quality of the human South players at the other tables in the tourney, not, generally (with one exception, see reference to Instant tourneys below) on the standard of GIB. If you are an intermediate player and the other humans in your seat are all advanced or better, then you should expect to rank poorly. By contrast if they are broadly of your calibre then you should expect to rank broadly average. And so on. All that the presence of GIB does is to level the playing field so that the comparison of your competence with other Souths becomes more meaningful, and "partnership" factors fall away in relevance.

Partnership factors have reduced relevance but are not entirely eliminated. There is "robot experience" to take into account. A player with extensive experience of robot system and "quirks" will outperform another player who on paper is of comparative skill but lacks that insider knowledge. Perhaps that discrepancy is wider among the better players (who are more capable of exploiting the quirks).

That leads to the inevitable question: just how good is the average player who participates in Robot tourneys? I don't have an answer to this. At least nothing with precision, but I have a few general observations:

1) I think that on average they are a better class of player than those whom you find, ON AVERAGE, in the main bridge club (who in turn are probably better on average than those in the relaxed bridge club)
2) I think that there is some variation in average competence depending on the type of robot tourney: Those which offer cash back for success tend to attract a higher class of player than the 8-board 25 cent master-point-only robot tournament.
3) If you play in an "Instant" tournament (which is of the 8 board 25 cent type) you should expect your results to be depressed slightly through no fault of your own, because the humans at other tables against whom you are competing will generally have a poorer (ie older) version of GIB at their tables, at which there are 2 opponents for 1 partner.

I don't know if this helps, but I play almost exclusively in robot tournaments, and the vast majority of those are Instant Match Points. I generally can't be bothered to wait more than a couple of minutes for a tournament, so if there is a 55% rebate or live 8-board tourney about to start I will play in it but find myself playing mostly in Instant tourneys because I can't be bothered to wait for more than a couple of minutes for a live one. I play fast but I don't enjoy tournaments where speed of play factors in the results, so I avoid the "races".

I rate myself as "Advanced" (most of the time, when sober). In the month of September 2014 I played 32 IMP deals (these must have been in 4 live 8 board 25 cent-ers) at which I scored an average of +1.38 IMPs per hand. In that month I played 556 MP deals, averaging 59.39%. Against double dummy par I did dramatically worse. Quite dreadfully, in fact. On the IMP hands I averaged -1.53 IMPs per hand. On the MP hands, rescored as IMP, I averaged -2.04 IMPs (it is not possible to simulate a match-point % v par). It comes as no surprise that I should fare worse on MP hands rescored as IMP, as I would have been adopting MP strategy, which would be non-optimal strategy in an IMP field. I do however find that this is typical month on month, (that I average a lot worse v par than I do v humans) and I don't understand why that should be the case.

Uday did run some tests a while back, per a post in this forum, at which the latest advanced GIBs seemed to play a 57% game measured against human counterparts. That is not a bad average, and I would expect an intermediate player to fare significantly worse; perhaps below 50%. But "intermediate" covers a multitude of sins.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#3 User is offline   onoway 

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Posted 2014-October-04, 23:57

ok understood that what happens at other tables affects results. I was just trying to isolate the player as much as possible by restricting the other players at that table to GIBs, which presumably are consistent, not subject to sudden lapses in concentration, flights of fancy and so forth.

If those are your results I would imagine that an intermediate..in the real sense of the word, not at either extreme of the spectrum, would likely be quite a bit lower average. How many hands out of that (almost) 600 would it take to establish/reflect your average, roughly? And, btw, I really appreciate your response. thank you.
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#4 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2014-October-05, 00:19

You have exhausted my knowledge with the earlier response, and I have no answer to our follow-up, sorry.

Hopefully another reader may have something to add.

It may interest you to note that in the month of September 2014 you played 139 hands recorded in MyHands database at which GIB occupied all 3 other seats. They were all played at IMP scoring and you averaged +0.56 IMPs per hand (-1.12 v d/d par). I would call that a respectable score if you rate yourself intermediate.

I should mention that if these hands are not played in tournaments then they are played with rented GIBs of which there is a choice of 2 types at differing cost and corresponding quality (the tournaments only use the advanced type). Possibly a third, very old, version if using the windows download client. Scoring an average of +0.56 IMPs per hand against advanced robots is obviously better than v basics. MyHands does not state which.

It is a point raised every so often on the software suggestions forum that the identity of GIB in hand records should include version and which of two levels
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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