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To bid or not to bid everyone is bidding

#1 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-October-04, 17:35



Team Game.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
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#2 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2014-October-04, 17:41

I would, but I'm not an expert. ;)
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
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#3 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2014-October-04, 17:47

Bidding seems awful to me. Everything about our hand screams defense, even the JT of hearts for a possible trump promotion or trick combined with any honor from partner. And then there's that whole law of total tricks thing... 16 is a more common number than 17. Our clubs are well placed behind the club bidder.

Only reason to bid is to hope to get to game which seems really optimistic (and if you thought your hand was so good then X 2H), as a partscore decision it seems like both going down is way more likely than both making.
The artist formerly known as jlall
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#4 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2014-October-04, 17:52

Compared to say, JT of spades and 2 small hearts this hand is much better for defense whereas JT of spades and 2 small hearts would be much better for offense. It's a massive difference imo. If we are going to bid 3 over 3 on what will often be a hand that has 2 8 card fits we need good trumps and pure values. Ofc with JT of spades and 2 small hearts I would have doubled 2H already heh.
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#5 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2014-October-04, 19:12

Bis what? 3S? No, that is horrible on this hand.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#6 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2014-October-04, 19:30

View PostMrAce, on 2014-October-04, 17:35, said:


Team Game.
IMO, In spite of the Hog's and Phantomsac's advice, 3 = 10, Pass = 9. Hoping partner has a bit in reserve for 2.
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#7 User is offline   allesfein 

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Posted 2014-October-05, 06:20

My analysis: PASS!

i. Max points between E-W ≈ 25,
ii. Opps are NOT in game,
iii. At 3, N-S may make +120 or even +150, neither of which makes it worth a sacrifice when vulnerable,
iv. E-W might score +140 at 3, , but more likely -200 or worse (3-2 or 3X-1; losing 1 (perhaps to a ruff), 1 , likely 2 , and likely at least 1)?
v. Why risk it when partner still has another call? With a strong opener, East has numerous options, including Pass!
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#8 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2014-October-05, 07:31

I play double pinochle style. Once I pass I rarely bid again. Partner pushed them to 3. Be satisfied and defend.
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#9 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-October-05, 07:34

No bid.

Pard did a fine job of pushing opps into the danger zone. Let's not spoil his work :)
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#10 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2014-October-05, 11:42

We have already limited our hand with pass over 2h and p has
undoubtedly been at least a tad conservative in their bidding
catering to the prospect of our being very short in spades.

We are close to an ace better than a min 1d overcall and we have
the (almost) max support p might expect from us given the bidding.
I agree that JT of spades and 2 small hearts would be better for
offense than defense I consider the difference closer to trivial
rather than massive (phantomsac). This is IMPS and pushing toward
an unlikely but not improbable game is much more rewarding than it
might be at MP.

SOTM considerations might convince me to defend but it is certainly
no crime to let p know about our extra values and support in a hand
that may happen to play quite well with our spades acting as a heart
pump deterrent.
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#11 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2014-October-05, 19:29

View Postgszes, on 2014-October-05, 11:42, said:

We have already limited our hand with pass over 2h and p has
undoubtedly been at least a tad conservative in their bidding
catering to the prospect of our being very short in spades.

We are close to an ace better than a min 1d overcall and we have
the (almost) max support p might expect from us given the bidding.
I agree that JT of spades and 2 small hearts would be better for
offense than defense I consider the difference closer to trivial
rather than massive (phantomsac). This is IMPS and pushing toward
an unlikely but not improbable game is much more rewarding than it
might be at MP.

SOTM considerations might convince me to defend but it is certainly
no crime to let p know about our extra values and support in a hand
that may happen to play quite well with our spades acting as a heart
pump deterrent.


"and support"
Are you looking at a different hand to me? Where is this support? xx is not support. JT is mild support.

"We are close to an ace better than a min 1d overcall"
Really? You appear to have a totally different philosophy to non space removing overcalls to mine. The 1D overcall has taken away NO ROOM whatsoever. I would not expect less for 1D. For me overcalls that take away no room are not just a random noise. (The exception to this is a 1S overcall as this is the boss suit.)
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#12 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2014-October-05, 22:23

View Postthe hog, on 2014-October-05, 19:29, said:

"and support"
Are you looking at a different hand to me? Where is this support? xx is not support. JT is mild support.

"We are close to an ace better than a min 1d overcall"
Really? You appear to have a totally different philosophy to non space removing overcalls to mine. The 1D overcall has taken away NO ROOM whatsoever. I would not expect less for 1D. For me overcalls that take away no room are not just a random noise. (The exception to this is a 1S overcall as this is the boss suit.)


xx Axx AT9xxx xx I admit some might wish to overcall 2d with this collection and others may
pass But a 1d overcall seems very reasonable here (to me anyway) that is the basis for my
almost an ace better comment. xx support for a suit that has been bid and rebid by partner
is virtually as good as JT especially in this case where the spades may act as a speed bump
against heart pumps.
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#13 User is offline   chasetb 

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Posted 2014-October-05, 23:47

The 1 bid is fine. However, at least half the time, our Q is worthless, and JT isn't worth squat on offense, so we aren't a King better than a minimum.

Not to mention we are VUL -> Pass
"It's not enough to win the tricks that belong to you. Try also for some that belong to the opponents."

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#14 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-October-06, 04:43

View Postthe hog, on 2014-October-05, 19:29, said:

"and support"
Are you looking at a different hand to me? Where is this support? xx is not support. JT is mild support.

"We are close to an ace better than a min 1d overcall"
Really? You appear to have a totally different philosophy to non space removing overcalls to mine. The 1D overcall has taken away NO ROOM whatsoever. I would not expect less for 1D. For me overcalls that take away no room are not just a random noise. (The exception to this is a 1S overcall as this is the boss suit.)



-If you have enough cards in pd's suit which makes it 8+ cards combined, it is a support, of course. It may not be as good as JT support which I agree.
- I have been hearing this "non-space consuming" bs a lot lately. Space consuming is last priority when making an overcall, if at all. But people talking as if it is the first priority. Give me AKJxx and out, I am overcalling over 1, I have a good suit, I am at 1 level, and it is perfectly in my range of 1 level overcall.

I am not arguing that we should bid 3. I did at the table, call it a bad bid. I think (I maybe wrong) they play 1 showing 5+ and perhaps I shd have mentioned it. Here is the whole deal


Other table 3 making +140 We made 3 +1 +170 (Jimmy ducked the first )

Score does not justify my bid of course. If i felt comfortable with my bid, I would not have asked all of yours opinions. But I'd rather prefer Justin's criticism than telling things like a 2 card suit is not a support to pd's known AT LEAST 6 card suit.... or 1 overcall has to be a good hand. It's for some it's not for some others. You can criticize me for bidding 3/3 with possible 16 trumps and bad support, red vs white and IMP, which I will accept without a word. I was simply wondering if there are other maniacs like me who would bid 3 Posted Image I found one!

Here is what I thought when bidding 3; If pd has 6322 hand we can lose 1 dia+2he +1 spade or 1dia + 3 he. I knew we could discard a card on dias and opponents do not have an easy timing for playing both trumps and cash 3 hearts. For example give pd AQJxxx xxx xx xx. Of course we may go down and my predictions could be wrong, which they were but in a good way. I use "The Law" as a guide but I do not follow it blindly. I had a plan when I bid 3 as I explained above and I thought, rightly or wrongly that we are very likely to make 3.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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