Chicken-hearted Lebensohl
#2
Posted 2014-October-05, 08:39
By now I have become convinced that the level of bridge expertise of the programmers is no better than the lower end of advanced.
#3
Posted 2014-October-05, 17:34
iandayre, on 2014-October-05, 08:39, said:
I think that there are some "players" in the team, but I worry that one of two factors are in play:
1) there is a lack of consultation with the better players in the team, or
2) the way that the entire GIB system is programmed is flawed in such a way that to correct some obvious shortcomings is disproportionately problematic from a programming viewpoint.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#5
Posted 2014-October-06, 00:06
cloa513, on 2014-October-05, 20:22, said:
12 TP. It does not count a shortage point for Qx. So it is *just* within system spec.Not a sensible system spec, but within it.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#7
Posted 2014-October-06, 02:11
cloa513, on 2014-October-06, 01:43, said:
My reading of "12- Total points" is "12 or fewer"
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#8
Posted 2014-October-06, 09:36
1eyedjack, on 2014-October-06, 00:06, said:
Why is "11- HCP; 12- total points" not a sensible system spec? North is a passed hand, which is what sets these limits. And North could have as little as a Yarborough with many clubs and be planning to pass South's forced 3♣ response.
#9
Posted 2014-October-06, 11:21
Bbradley62, on 2014-October-06, 09:36, said:
We are agreed that North could hardly be stronger in context of being a passed hand.
The purpose of Lebensohl is to split North's ranges into sensible sizes, so that South, who is unlimited, can decide whether to continue on to game on an informed basis.
There are two possible ways of achieving this:
Option 1: Lump maximum hands into 2NT (in which case South can freely bypass 3C and indeed any other suit that he does not want to risk being passed), so that a direct 3-suit in advance to the X would be very weak, or
Option 2: Lump minimum hands into 2NT, so that a direct 3-suit bid in advance to the X shows values. Then doubler is under pressure to bid 3C over 2N unless having something very special.
Option 2 is the standard, and dare I say it the more sensible. That being the case, it is not sensible for North to be indicating a minimum in context (via 2N) when he really has a maximum.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#10
Posted 2014-October-06, 11:32
whereas the balanced 11 count without a diamond stopper would go:
If so, then the 2N can still be anywhere from 0-11 HCP. I certainly agree that the posted hand should not drop at 3♣, which was the meaning of my post and heading.
#11
Posted 2014-October-06, 12:58
Over a Weak 2M, 2NT, then 3NT over 3C shows a stopper plus 4 of the other major, with the direct 3NT denying 4 of that major.
At least that's what the books say. Not sure if GIB has been so programmed.
#12
Posted 2014-October-06, 13:40
Bbradley62, on 2014-October-06, 11:32, said:
whereas the balanced 11 count without a diamond stopper would go:
If so, then the 2N can still be anywhere from 0-11 HCP. I certainly agree that the posted hand should not drop at 3♣, which was the meaning of my post and heading.
May I put it another way?
In your variant of Leb, what is the definition of 3C response to X?
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#13
Posted 2014-October-06, 14:22
With the actual hand in question, I'd bid 2NT followed 3S, showing invitational values with exactly 4 spades. A direct jump would be invitational with 5+.
#14
Posted 2014-October-06, 22:06
iandayre, on 2014-October-06, 14:22, said:
I was asking Bbradley62, as I am still trying to understand how he concludes that Gib's choice of 2N is reasonable.
The possession of the 4th Spade is certainly an issue. If you are committed to showing Spades (which Gib clearly was not), which necessarily requires concealing Clubs, then 2N followed by 3S is reasonable. An immediate 3S would be forcing and an overbid on this hand (but still possible despite being a passed hand). 2S would be an underbid. So if the plan is to bid Spades then 2N is the Launchpad.
But GIB decided that bidding Clubs was preferable. You may disagree with that but I don't think it outrageous. Doubler does not promise 4 Spades although I would expect 3. If you are committed to the 3 level then I am prepared to trust Gib's assessment that a plus score is more likely in Clubs. Penalties for going down score the same regardless of major v minor
If game is on, ie if doubler is prepared to bid again over a value-showing 3C, then there remains room to find Spades. If doubler passes then you might regret not having bid 2S but at least you got your values across.
To my mind, the greater programing fault with Gib on this hand is its decision unilaterally to drop dead in 3C on a maximum hand, and the possession of a 4th Spade is an annoying side issue. Next time this happens, Gib won't have a 4th Spade, that distraction will disappear, and yet as currently programmed Gib will still unilaterally drop you in 3C.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#15
Posted 2014-October-07, 07:11
1eyedjack, on 2014-October-06, 22:06, said:
#16
Posted 2014-October-07, 09:25
The explanation of 2N is fine, because *some* of the followups by North (ie 3S via 2N) would show a full value game try.
But North's subsequent pass of 3C is not consistent with a hand of such power. If bidding 2N with the intention of dropping 3C (which intent is demonstrated by its actually dropping 3C in practice) then I would be very surprised to find a North with more than about 7 HCP, maybe a bad 8.
There is no issue with the explanation of 2N here, because there is only so much space in which to fit the explanation, and it tends to include the broadest possibility.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#17
Posted 2014-October-07, 09:40
From an unpassed hand signing-off in 3♣ is reasonable. I still think it's the wrong choice but not the worst bid Gib ever made.
But from a passed hand Gib should be doing something encouraging that's not forcing. I believe that would be 3♣. Having the 3-bids as game-forcing is a waster, it's just not gonna happen enough and often these game-forcing hands will be flawed anyways or they would have opened. However it is useful to show 8-11 pts and deny 0-7 pts.
#18
Posted 2014-October-07, 09:58
1eyedjack, on 2014-October-07, 09:25, said:
#19
Posted 2014-October-07, 13:42
IMO :
10: 2nt ! forcing 3c, then 3s = 4 cd S, invitational (not universal standard treatment, but a reasonable somewhat common approach, unfortunately there is almost no standard for Leb over weak 2 as to the meanings of delayed 3nt/cue/3OM)
8: direct 3s = invitational (if above is implemented this should show 5 + spades inv)
2: direct 3c = 8-11 pts, clubs (should DENY 4 cd S IMO)
2: 2S (massive underbid but at least you get to spades at MP, and partner might be able to find a raise)
0: 2nt and pass 3c
#20
Posted 2014-October-07, 14:39
It's puzzling that the robot will make a negative double to show 4 cards in the other major with enough values for a free bid while suppressing a minor suit as long as 7 cards yet will suppress a 4-card major in response to a take-out double (when an 8-card fit is a high probability) in order to bid a minor suit.