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1S-2C-2S-4S vs 1S-2C-2H-2S somewhat related to other topic

#1 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 17:11

No hand to go with this one. When I was in the debate that provoked my last atb topic, I had said that 1S-2C-2S-4S was a picture bid showing good clubs and spades and no red suit control. However, I have been trying to find references for this auction for my sanity and any references I find are saying that 1S-2C-2S-4S is just showing a minimum GF while 1S-2C-2H-4S is a picture bid, so I was wondering why there is a distinction between the 2 auctions. My first thought was that opener would be limited by the 2S bid, but what else is opener meant to do with something like AKJxxx AQx AQx x (make one of the red suits a bit weaker if you feel it is too strong for a 1S opener)

edit: title meant to read 1S-2C-2S-4S vs 1S-2C-2H-4S, can a mod fix this please

reedit: I guess it has something to do with the ability to set trumps at the 2 level. ps. the above of course in a 2/1 context.

This post has been edited by manudude03: 2014-September-20, 17:20

Wayne Somerville
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#2 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 19:38

Al Roth many years ago wrote a book called picture bidding, you may wish to check it out

The Granovetters have written many articles referring to Roth and picture bidding over the years.
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#3 User is offline   yunling 

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Posted 2014-September-21, 05:05

I learnt the method from cuebidding at Bridge by Ken Rexford.
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#4 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2014-September-21, 05:36

To assign a meaning to the jump to 4 I think you also have to consider what a cheaper bid would mean. If you play nothing artificial it makes sense for a jump to game being minimum, and support at a lower level being stronger. If you play that a simple preference could be shorter than expected for a bid at that level, then you can play that a cheap support is shorter than normal, ideally looking for an alternative contract while unable to bid anything better. You can combine these in your examples:
1 2, 2 2 = only 2 card support, nothing much in diamonds, but willing opener to bid NT if he has only 5 spades and some diamonds
1 2, 2 3 = 3+ card support, 16+ or thereabouts, encouraging opener to cue if suitable
1 2, 2 4 = 3+ card support, 13-15 or thereabouts

Similar logic can apply whether opener shows a second suit or not.

On the other hand, if you play something artificial like non-serious 3NT, then any strength hand can support with 2, knowing that you can use your artificial convention to deny/show strength at a later stage. That means a jump to 4 can carry specific information, such as not just a non-serious hand, but one that has nothing to show should partner otherwise be seeking to cue bid.

The distinction between the auctions depends merely on what the alternatives are.
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#5 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-September-21, 08:59

In the second auction responder can bid 2, 3 or 4 so 4 must be something very specific
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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