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atb missing 6S

Poll: atb (25 member(s) have cast votes)

Assign the blame.

  1. 100% North (16 votes [64.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 64.00%

  2. 75% North, 25% South (4 votes [16.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.00%

  3. 50% each (1 votes [4.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

  4. 25% North, 75% South (1 votes [4.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

  5. 100% South (2 votes [8.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

  6. Unlucky/system (1 votes [4.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

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#1 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 13:27



Fairly basic 2/1 system. 3NT by North over 3S would have been a serious slam try. Assign the blame.

Both players arguments below:
North:- South's 3S shows a mild slam try. Once North bids 4D, South with 2 aces should give a cuebid.
South:- 3S is simply showing a non-descript hand with support. Once North bypasses 3NT, the hand isn't good enough to co-operate.
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#2 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 15:16

Maybe it depends on how serious your serious slam tries are, but why is someone with 3 keycards, 6ish HCP to spare for their bidding and at least 6 playing tricks criticising someone with 2 keycards, a jack spare for their bidding and about 3 playing tricks for not pushing harder for slam than they did?

Aces are useful cards, but they don't work miracles.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 15:30

I don't understand how 3 can be a mild try. What to do with a real slam try?

Agree with S.

Edit: Aqua, just to clarify: I have no issues with the 3 bid, only with the assumption that it is limited to a mil slam try.

This post has been edited by helene_t: 2014-September-21, 04:35

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#4 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 15:32

What would 3 have shown over 2, rather than 2?
What would 4 over 4 have implied/shown that South doesn't have?
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#5 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 15:52

View PostBbradley62, on 2014-September-20, 15:32, said:

What would 3 have shown over 2, rather than 2?
What would 4 over 4 have implied/shown that South doesn't have?


Expert standard. 3S would have set trumps. 4D/H by south would have been splinters.
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#6 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 15:53

If 4 is non-serious, I think South has nothing to add. Easy 4NT by North after 3. I mean.. he's got solid extras, a 6 carder, a fitting club honor... what more do you need?
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#7 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 17:34

View Postmanudude03, on 2014-September-20, 13:27, said:


Fairly basic 2/1 system. 3NT by North over 3S would have been a serious slam try. Assign the blame.
Both players arguments below:
North:- South's 3S shows a mild slam try. Once North bids 4D, South with 2 aces should give a cuebid.
South:- 3S is simply showing a non-descript hand with support. Once North bypasses 3NT, the hand isn't good enough to co-operate.
Depends on partnership style but IMO North 70% South 30%.North can do more (e.g. bid 3N) but South can afford a 4 cue bid
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#8 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 17:47

north has a serious cue
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#9 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 18:28

View Posthelene_t, on 2014-September-20, 15:30, said:

I don't understand how 3 can be a mild try. What to do with a real slam try?

True, but South nevertheless has a 3S bid..willing to cooperate with a serious slam try though not slammish on his own.

View Postwank, on 2014-September-20, 17:47, said:

north has a serious cue

Exactly. If 3NT was "serious", North should have bid 3NT. If 4D was a serious Cue, or even close, South should cooperate with the heart cue.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#10 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2014-September-20, 19:26

View Postmanudude03, on 2014-September-20, 13:27, said:



Fairly basic 2/1 system. 3NT by North over 3S would have been a serious slam try. Assign the blame.

Both players arguments below:
North:- South's 3S shows a mild slam try. Once North bids 4D, South with 2 aces should give a cuebid.
South:- 3S is simply showing a non-descript hand with support. Once North bypasses 3NT, the hand isn't good enough to co-operate.


20% n blame
20% south blame
60% rub of the green very tough hand.


3s=slam try
4s would be a dead minimum.

This hand is very very close but if 2s=6 not 5then with 3 keycards I would bid 3s. If 2s as often in the forums is only 5 I would bid 4s.

Over 3s if 3nt is serious slam try that is ok but the vast majority don't play that so.....4d now.


I think now 4h over 4d with 3 keycards. but again that south hand is pretty minimum for the bidding.

good hand to discuss with pard but I expect many n onexperts and some true experts to miss slam on this one.
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#11 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-September-21, 03:04

very tough hand? well, this is the sort of thing serious 3NT was made for.. it's very easy with that gadget
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#12 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2014-September-21, 04:02

North is hopeless. South did not bid 4S, which means that South is not bare minimum. After 4D, 4H would show a club control. So, what can South have?

South could have a heck of a lot of red cards, which seems really nice.

South could have a minimum with primes, which also seems nice.

North bid anti system. But, North also lacks understanding of the nuances of the sequence. 100% North.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#13 User is offline   yunling 

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Posted 2014-September-21, 05:12

North underbid by a king. A good example for seriou/non-serious 3NT…
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#14 User is offline   beatrix45 

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Posted 2014-September-30, 06:56

100% South, imo. North cue bid in (whether serious or non-serious is of no matter), so not showing a control in passing says "either I have no control" or "I have a terrible hand for slam". Of course, South had no such thing - two round suit aces and QJx in trumps. Really.
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#15 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2014-September-30, 07:29

View Postbeatrix45, on 2014-September-30, 06:56, said:

100% South, imo. North cue bid in (whether serious or non-serious is of no matter), so not showing a control in passing says "either I have no control" or "I have a terrible hand for slam". Of course, South had no such thing - two round suit aces and QJx in trumps. Really.

4H doesn't show a heart control.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#16 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2014-September-30, 08:08

50/50

Basically they have a disagreement, what 3S means.

You can argue, that one agreement is better, closer to standard, whatever, in the end,
they disagreed on the meaning.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#17 User is offline   beatrix45 

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Posted 2014-September-30, 08:26

View Postkenrexford, on 2014-September-30, 07:29, said:

4H doesn't show a heart control.

Just out of curiosity, what would 4 show in your world and why?
Trixi
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#18 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2014-September-30, 08:46

View Postbeatrix45, on 2014-September-30, 08:26, said:

Just out of curiosity, what would 4 show in your world and why?



This is an often misunderstood aspect of cuebidding, a false paradox, perhaps.

Consider the context (ignoring the actual hands, because North bid weird). North's cuebid of 4 bypassed 4 and therefore should have denied a club control. If the purpose of this type of cuebidding is solely to avoid bidding slams off two cashers in one suit (the Ace-King and concede down one), then 4 showed a diamond control but denied a club control.

Now, to Opener. Opener has three relevant holdings and one irrelevant holding. If Opener has no club control either, he has no slam interest and will sign off. As the one irrelevant holding, Opener could have no club control but a heart control. So what? Why show a heart control if you have no club control? So, bidding 4 to announce that subtle nuance would be pointless.

The only two situations where slam is possible, then, are hands with a club control but no heart control, or hands with both clubs and hearts controlled.

There is only one cuebid left -- 4. For Opener to bid 4, as a slam probe, he MUST have a club control. Otherwise, bidding 4 would be stupid. So, the one thing we know for certain is that 4 shows a club control.

Then, the question is whether 4 should also show what you might superficially think -- that Opener has a control in the suit he bids. Seems obvious? Not really. If Opener has control of hearts AND clubs, bidding 4 is somewhat pointless, as he could just bid 4NT to ask for Aces. Technically, 4 could be used as "I have control, but I still doubt due to strength." That is not dumb.

However, this leaves Opener with no good option if he has club control, but no heart control. Sure--he could bid 5. But, this creates a dumb problem, not only for bypassing 4NT but also for forcing the 5-level.

Because of this, the general consensus is that 4 here, which must show a club control by force of logic, only shows that control and, instead of also showing a heart control but doubt, shows a lack of a heart control, which is the doubt. This keeps us below 4 and below 4NT when this usually matters.

A blended option is to have 4 ambiguous about heart control, bidding 4 with either general strength doubt OR heart control problems. This is playable. However, with this blended approach, 4 does not PROMISE a heart control -- it just would not DENY a heart control.




"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#19 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-September-30, 09:52

View Postwhereagles, on 2014-September-21, 03:04, said:

very tough hand? well, this is the sort of thing serious 3NT was made for.. it's very easy with that gadget

Yes, of course. The things the OP partnership need to get squared away are IMO:

1) Lose the idea that the 3S bid itself was slammish. It merely should establish the trneitherump fit -- the prototype situation where neither hand is yet limited and serious/non-serious 3NT establishes or denies real slam interest by Opener.

2) Decide whether 3NT is "serious" or a cue is "Serious". Either one can be agreed, but pick one or the other.

3) Define the other one..the "non-serious" choice... as willing to cooperate if Responder has slam interest --- as opposed to a real dog opening bid.

If the above were in place, North should have gone "serious" with all that stuff -- even the stiff queen opposite a 2C response has potential for slam. If South then cooperates with "serious" via cue or LT, slam is launched.
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#20 User is offline   beatrix45 

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Posted 2014-September-30, 23:45

View Postkenrexford, on 2014-September-30, 08:46, said:

This is an often misunderstood aspect of cuebidding, a false paradox, perhaps.

Consider the context (ignoring the actual hands, because North bid weird). North's cuebid of 4 bypassed 4 and therefore should have denied a club control. If the purpose of this type of cuebidding is solely to avoid bidding slams off two cashers in one suit (the Ace-King and concede down one), then 4 showed a diamond control but denied a club control.

Now, to Opener. Opener has three relevant holdings and one irrelevant holding. If Opener has no club control either, he has no slam interest and will sign off. As the one irrelevant holding, Opener could have no club control but a heart control. So what? Why show a heart control if you have no club control? So, bidding 4 to announce that subtle nuance would be pointless.

The only two situations where slam is possible, then, are hands with a club control but no heart control, or hands with both clubs and hearts controlled.

There is only one cuebid left -- 4. For Opener to bid 4, as a slam probe, he MUST have a club control. Otherwise, bidding 4 would be stupid. So, the one thing we know for certain is that 4 shows a club control.

Then, the question is whether 4 should also show what you might superficially think -- that Opener has a control in the suit he bids. Seems obvious? Not really. If Opener has control of hearts AND clubs, bidding 4 is somewhat pointless, as he could just bid 4NT to ask for Aces. Technically, 4 could be used as "I have control, but I still doubt due to strength." That is not dumb.

However, this leaves Opener with no good option if he has club control, but no heart control. Sure--he could bid 5. But, this creates a dumb problem, not only for bypassing 4NT but also for forcing the 5-level.

Because of this, the general consensus is that 4 here, which must show a club control by force of logic, only shows that control and, instead of also showing a heart control but doubt, shows a lack of a heart control, which is the doubt. This keeps us below 4 and below 4NT when this usually matters.

A blended option is to have 4 ambiguous about heart control, bidding 4 with either general strength doubt OR heart control problems. This is playable. However, with this blended approach, 4 does not PROMISE a heart control -- it just would not DENY a heart control.


Etaion Shurdlu. Like it or not, bridge bidding is a language. No matter how good or bad your ideas may be, you can't just make it up as you go along as it pleases you. The 2/1 approach goes to extreme efforts to create an extra round of bidding for cue bidding or some other form of slam investigation. I certainly cannot say that coded responses and/or relays might not someday turn out to be useful and accepted by everyone, but right now you gotta sprechen die lingo.


Trixi
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