BBO Discussion Forums: How do we avoid this? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

How do we avoid this?

#1 User is offline   Trick13 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 177
  • Joined: 2011-April-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 2014-September-04, 18:14



MP, red vs white.

Alas there was no happy ending, even after the 7 lead ducked around to the Q in 3NT(!).

East needs to pass 3. What should he be thinking besides "If partner has a stop we could make 3NT".

Making contracts were 2 and (3).
0

#2 User is offline   gszes 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,653
  • Joined: 2011-February-12

Posted 2014-September-04, 19:21

preemptive bids (including weak 2 bids) can cause disruption by causing both underbidding
as well as overbidding. The problem with this hand was the 3c overcall which was arguably
an ace short of what's needed for a 3 level vul overcall. East made a slightly aggressive
3s bid (with all those slow values if partner cannot bid 3n 4 or even 5c would probably
be out of reach.
0

#3 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2014-September-05, 03:09

Everything's fine. East might have passed 3, but no warm-blooded creature would do it.

Bidding is not an exact science. But hey, 100 down is fine vs 140 in 3, no?
0

#4 User is offline   Trick13 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 177
  • Joined: 2011-April-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 2014-September-05, 07:30

It's vul, so we are at least -200.

Actually we were a bit unlucky as every other pair probably faced a multi 2 opener instead. Then West can pass and bid a delayed 3.
0

#5 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2014-September-05, 09:03

oh sorry, I saw it the other way around
0

#6 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,898
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2014-September-05, 09:35

View PostTrick13, on 2014-September-05, 07:30, said:

It's vul, so we are at least -200.

Actually we were a bit unlucky as every other pair probably faced a multi 2 opener instead. Then West can pass and bid a delayed 3.


Except that a lot of people play that as clubs and the other major.

If you pass 3, partner will have Qxx, A9, 109, AKxxxx and he can be a bit better than that.

No blame.
0

#7 User is offline   wank 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,866
  • Joined: 2008-July-13

Posted 2014-September-05, 12:24

west doesn't have a 3 club bid
0

#8 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,029
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-September-05, 12:47

3C normal, 3S normal, 3NT normal, ... -2 happens.
You were unlucky, that North did not raise to 3S.
They gave you room, unfortunately, the room did not
help you, next bord ... hopefully against the same
opponents.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
0

#9 User is offline   broze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,001
  • Joined: 2011-March-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2014-September-12, 04:32

I would never be bidding 3C here. Terrible suit. Flat. And rubbish holding in opp'so suit.
'In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.' - Douglas Adams
0

#10 User is offline   billw55 

  • enigmatic
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,757
  • Joined: 2009-July-31
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-September-12, 07:55

View Postwhereagles, on 2014-September-05, 03:09, said:

Everything's fine.

View PostCyberyeti, on 2014-September-05, 09:35, said:

No blame.

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2014-September-05, 12:47, said:

3NT normal

I am somewhat surprised by all this. Partner asks for a stopper in opponents known 6-card suit, we are looking at Qx and go for it?
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
0

#11 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2014-September-12, 09:12

View Postbillw55, on 2014-September-12, 07:55, said:

I am somewhat surprised by all this. Partner asks for a stopper in opponents known 6-card suit, we are looking at Qx and go for it?


I think that I would. Qx may be enough, but if it is not, then you are probably destined to go minus whatever happens. So you might as well hope for the best.

But then I would not have bid 3C.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#12 User is offline   neilkaz 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,568
  • Joined: 2006-June-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Barrington IL USA
  • Interests:Backgammon, Bridge, Hockey

Posted 2014-September-12, 10:09

I like to compete aggressively vs preempts and more so than some strong players who post here in these forums. But the 3 bid really is a bit light here and noting that LHO is unpassed, could really get clobbered. The suit is not all that good, and the hand is 6322 and the Qx in is a terrible holding and note that's 2 HCP PD doesn't have. I'd pass and also note that I can expect PD to try for 3NT with his hand by bidding 3.

So after overcalling with at best a dead minimum, west then assumes Qx is a stopper and bids 3NT! Guess who gets 100% of the blame here.

If the 7 lead was ducked, rather than running 6 tricks to start the torture, perhaps E-W would do well to discuss their lead agreements.

.. neilkaz ..

EDIT: As 1eyedjack just posted, you are destined to go minus anyhow if the Qx isn't a stop. But this should have been a bigger minus.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that a PD went for 1700 a couple years ago with me when she overcalled 3C with almost the same hand except that her suit was headed by KJ and her LHO had a better C suit than she did.
0

#13 User is offline   billw55 

  • enigmatic
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,757
  • Joined: 2009-July-31
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-September-12, 12:02

View Postneilkaz, on 2014-September-12, 10:09, said:

If the 7 lead was ducked, rather than running 6 tricks to start the torture, perhaps E-W would do well to discuss their lead agreements.

Perhaps south held AKxxxx and out, and gave west credit for Qxx for his bid. Now ducking may be the only way to keep the spades in play. It seems like a reasonable trap to fall into - partner only needs one entry.

Maybe bluffing is a part of bridge once in a while. Has anyone tried something like this on purpose?
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
0

#14 User is offline   neilkaz 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,568
  • Joined: 2006-June-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Barrington IL USA
  • Interests:Backgammon, Bridge, Hockey

Posted 2014-September-12, 12:42

View Postbillw55, on 2014-September-12, 12:02, said:

Perhaps south held AKxxxx and out, and gave west credit for Qxx for his bid. Now ducking may be the only way to keep the spades in play. It seems like a reasonable trap to fall into - partner only needs one entry.


Sure with AKxxxx and out he has to duck the 7 if he reads it as from a doubleton so PD can return his last when he gets in. My point is that if the pair has an agreement with what to lead with three small on this auction where support was not given then the defense could be very clear.

As a defense disciple of Kantar's defense stuff (but with UDCA) I lead low from 3 small in PD's suit when I didn't support. Now PD can probably read it correctly as he sees Jx in dummy. If the lead is stiff, he can't duck or he takes no tricks. If the lead is from 3, well then 6 tricks cash as long as the opener leader unblocks if it is possible needed.
0

#15 User is offline   Trick13 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 177
  • Joined: 2011-April-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 2014-September-12, 15:11

South couldn't believe that West didn't have a stop, so ducked - the 7 (from 762) looking like a doubleton.
Also North passed when he had a clear 3 raise.

We were -400 in 3NT with everything off-side.
0

#16 User is offline   SteveMoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,168
  • Joined: 2012-May-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati Unit 124
  • Interests:Family, Travel, Bridge Tournaments and Writing. Youth Bridge

Posted 2014-September-12, 17:04

If one overcalls with the West hand (I wouldn't) then you'll have more character building opportunities like these. West over valued the Q twice in this auction. Pass. Sound actions a the 3-level over their preempts pay out in the long run. Besides, partner knows what to do with a hand good enough to move toward game anyway so no need to be impatient with an imperfect hand.

FWIW, If they had preempted 2 and you hels a dominant hand with a similar pattern, a 2 overcall would be wholly appropriate. Here 3 is too much.
If you wouldn't overcall without the Q, then you don't have an action with the Qx unless you know partner holds values or shortness in that suit.
Be the partner you want to play with.
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
0

#17 User is offline   PhantomSac 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,488
  • Joined: 2006-March-23
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-September-12, 17:17

It's not like the queen of spades is worthless, if partner bids 3N I bet the queen of spades is a huge card. When partner has nothing in spades it is worthless but that's often not the case (esp if we can make 3N).
The artist formerly known as jlall
0

#18 User is offline   lamford 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,417
  • Joined: 2007-October-15

Posted 2014-September-12, 19:10

View Postgszes, on 2014-September-04, 19:21, said:

The problem with this hand was the 3c overcall which was arguably an ace short of what's needed for a 3 level vul overcall.

I agree that West does not have a 3C bid, but it is hardly an ace short. Qx AQx xx AQJxxx looks a normal 3C overcall, and that is just a queen better.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
0

#19 User is offline   Nabooba 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 82
  • Joined: 2012-March-01

Posted 2014-September-12, 19:40

You can avoid this by not bidding 3C on this rubbish. That is a big overbid.
Where are you parrot?
0

#20 User is offline   akwoo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,309
  • Joined: 2010-November-21

Posted 2014-September-12, 20:42

Personally, I think this is a perfectly good 3 overcall at MPs.

However, I think it's clear from this thread it doesn't matter what I think; it matters what your partner and you agree on.

One choice is that you agree West has a normal 3 overcall, and East passes with that hand opposite. You miss some games, but you compete better on partscodes.

Another choice is that you agree West should not overcall 3 on the West hand, and East should bid over the 3 overcall. Your game bidding is better, but sometimes you sell out to 2 or 3 when you're better off playing 3 or 4.
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users