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Opener gives delayed support 3rd round. How many card support?

#1 User is offline   kieran c 

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Posted 2014-September-03, 12:35

(My background is Acol, assume 4card Majors)
Auction goes
1:1,
2:2,
2....is this showing 3card spade support or just "preference" with 2spades?
If this is showing 3card support, would 2NT guarantee stop?
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-September-03, 12:39

Just preference. 2NT shows a diamond stop.
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#3 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 04:28

Not sure it guarantees much of a stop. What would you do with a 1345 holding 5432?
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#4 User is offline   kieran c 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 13:58

View PostZelandakh, on 2014-September-04, 04:28, said:

Not sure it guarantees much of a stop. What would you do with a 1345 holding 5432?

I suppose least bad bid...

So 3 would show no 3s, nostop, 6s?

I can find no reference in the books for the initial question of 3card support v preference with 2...any help?
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#5 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2014-September-04, 14:01

I think the normal expectation is that 2 shows 3 spades, but there are times when you might have to bid it with only 2 as the best lie.

#6 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-September-05, 02:53

kieran, this may depend on whether

1 1
2 2

is forcing/artificial or not. If it is, then 2 might be a mere preference. Otherwise I would say opener should have 3 spades.

Odds must favour 3 cards.. still, in doubt I wouldn't assume 3 unless I really had to.
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#7 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2014-September-05, 08:52

this is very much a national style issue. for example, everyone i know in england at a decent standard raises directly on 3 on the vast majority of unbalanced hands with a minimum (yes, despite the 6 card suit), 2S here is perforce a doubleton. in some countries this is considered very very odd.
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#8 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2014-September-05, 15:08

Hi,

assuming 2H showed inv. values or better, and is forcing.

If opener has 3 card support, ... I would assume he bids 3S,
opening bid, 8+ major fit, limited opener.
hence 2S is not real supp., 2NT showes a min, but a stopper,
3C would show 6+ clubs and at most spade single.

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Marlowe
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#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-September-05, 15:11

View Postwank, on 2014-September-05, 08:52, said:

this is very much a national style issue. for example, everyone i know in england at a decent standard raises directly on 3 on the vast majority of unbalanced hands with a minimum (yes, despite the 6 card suit), 2S here is perforce a doubleton. in some countries this is considered very very odd.

Two is an odd number? B-)
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#10 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2014-September-06, 13:44

View PostZelandakh, on 2014-September-04, 04:28, said:

Not sure it guarantees much of a stop. What would you do with a 1345 holding 5432?

Pass, of course, unless that 2 was forcing. Have to ask an acol player. If it was, 3 with a minimum open. Support is usually the best option with 3 card major support and an outside shortage.
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#11 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-September-06, 16:25

View PostfromageGB, on 2014-September-06, 13:44, said:

Pass, of course, unless that 2 was forcing. Have to ask an acol player. If it was, 3 with a minimum open. Support is usually the best option with 3 card major support and an outside shortage.


It's comments such as this that give Acol a bad name.
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#12 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-September-07, 04:42

View Postblackshoe, on 2014-September-05, 15:11, said:

Two is an odd number? B-)


yes.. it's and odd number because it's the only even number that's prime Posted Image
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#13 User is offline   Nabooba 

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Posted 2014-September-07, 05:59

View Postwhereagles, on 2014-September-07, 04:42, said:

yes.. it's and odd number because it's the only even number that's prime Posted Image

Where are you parrot?
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#14 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2014-September-07, 17:33

View PostZelandakh, on 2014-September-04, 04:28, said:

Not sure it guarantees much of a stop. What would you do with a 1345 holding 5432?


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#15 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2014-September-07, 18:21

View PostSteveMoe, on 2014-September-07, 17:33, said:

1NT?

In some countries that would be considered very very odd. ;)
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#16 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2014-September-08, 01:49

View Postkieran c, on 2014-September-04, 13:58, said:

I suppose least bad bid...

So 3 would show no 3s, nostop, 6s?

I can find no reference in the books for the initial question of 3 card support v preference with 2...any help?

For me it is a strange concept that a simple preference should show 3 card support, even in a 2/1 concept.
Here, with a good hand in context and 3 card support I would jump to 3
I am unlikely to rebid clubs in the first place when I have three card spade support.
I am more likely to give false preference with 2=3=2=6 than holding 3 card support.
With 1-3=4=5 I am unlikely to rebid 2. I would rebid 1NT.
Rebidding a minor should show six cards with few exceptions.

There is a sound principle for optimal information exchange, which is the most important objective in constructive bidding:
Cheap bids should be unspecific and cover a wide range of hands while higher bids should be specific.
Good system agreements should not violate this principle.
The reason is simple: Over cheap bids there is bidding room left to refine your hands further.
For example over a 1NT rebid there are various forms of checkback, which can also be tweaked to show unbalanced hands with a singleton spade.
Over a minor suit rebid there is no checkback.

Claiming that a 1NT rebid over 1 (cheapest bid) should not be done with a singleton spade and forcing you to rebid a 5 card minor instead (more expensive) violates this principle.
Saying that a 2 preference over 2 (cheapest rebid) should show 3 card support also violates this principle (too specific).

Rainer Herrmann
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#17 User is offline   kieran c 

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Posted 2014-September-09, 12:21

View Postrhm, on 2014-September-08, 01:49, said:

For me it is a strange concept that a simple preference should show 3 card support, even in a 2/1 concept.
Here, with a good hand in context and 3 card support I would jump to 3
I am unlikely to rebid clubs in the first place when I have three card spade support.
I am more likely to give false preference with 2=3=2=6 than holding 3 card support.
With 1-3=4=5 I am unlikely to rebid 2. I would rebid 1NT.
Rebidding a minor should show six cards with few exceptions.

There is a sound principle for optimal information exchange, which is the most important objective in constructive bidding:
Cheap bids should be unspecific and cover a wide range of hands while higher bids should be specific.
Good system agreements should not violate this principle.
The reason is simple: Over cheap bids there is bidding room left to refine your hands further.
For example over a 1NT rebid there are various forms of checkback, which can also be tweaked to show unbalanced hands with a singleton spade.
Over a minor suit rebid there is no checkback.

Claiming that a 1NT rebid over 1 (cheapest bid) should not be done with a singleton spade and forcing you to rebid a 5 card minor instead (more expensive) violates this principle.
Saying that a 2 preference over 2 (cheapest rebid) should show 3 card support also violates this principle (too specific).

Rainer Herrmann


Thanks to all for their very constructive input. You have reinforced my initial impression that 2 by opener does not guarantee 3 card support and for sure shows a minimum hand, given the availability of 3 to show 3 card support and (perhaps) better than minimum hand, 2NT to show stop and minimum hand, and 3 to show a hand only good for ..minimum 6.

I particularly like the idea that opener with 3s should raise responder's 1 to 2 in preference to rebidding 2. Ron Klinger recommends this (p8 "Guide to better Acol bridge"...the blue book, and p71 "Understandiing the uncontested auction"). If so, then supporting only at second oppurtunity suggests 2 only.

Thanks again all :)
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#18 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2014-September-09, 13:00

View Postkieran c, on 2014-September-09, 12:21, said:

... given the availability of 3 to show 3 card support and (perhaps) better than minimum hand...

I think what 3 shows depends on the strength of the 2 bid. If this has to be invitational strength, then perhaps 3 is game forcing, because a weak opener with 3 spades could bid just 2, the same as he would with a doubleton. On the other hand, if 2 could be weaker than that, then the jump to 3 would be an invitation with a stronger hand.

For opener's first rebid, I would say it was normal to bid 2 with a 3226 shape, but 2 with a 3xx5. But others may have a different view on normality.
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