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is this a trap?

#1 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2014-August-27, 16:31

sitting 3rd seat, favourable@MP's, you pick up:

A6
K864
KQT5
952

against reasonable oops at a late-night MP tournament, you see the bidding go like this:

1D-p-1H-2C
x-2S-3D-p
p-3S-??

3D was not really the value bid, but what do you do now? Partner is a sound opener.

edit: now there are 13 cards
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#2 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2014-August-27, 16:46

12 cards
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#3 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2014-August-27, 17:56

View PostPhantomSac, on 2014-August-27, 16:46, said:

12 cards

They are vulnerable at MPs in 3, what else do you need to double?
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#4 User is offline   Lord Molyb 

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Posted 2014-August-27, 18:08

View Postcherdano, on 2014-August-27, 17:56, said:

They are vulnerable at MPs in 3, what else do you need to double?

A 13th card.
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#5 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2014-August-27, 18:15

Another topic with 12 cards ..
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#6 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2014-August-27, 19:45

Ah, I found a club on the floor!
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#7 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 01:55

In my experience RHO has a bunch of weak spades. It's no use to dbl because LHO will pull to 4 like 110% of the time, so I'd say 4 (3NT risks seeing LHO cashing a bunch of clubs).
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#8 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 01:59

View Postcherdano, on 2014-August-27, 17:56, said:

They are vulnerable at MPs in 3, what else do you need to double?


I dunno if I had a fifth diamond maybe I would not want to double, it hurts our defensive prospects and helps our offensive prospects. In general I want to have 13 cards before I decide what to do :P
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#9 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 03:09

View Postgwnn, on 2014-August-27, 16:31, said:

3D was not really the value bid, but what do you do now? Partner is a sound opener.

- You have told partner your distribution in the red suits. He will expect you to be about 3-2 in the blacks.
- You have about an ace more than what my partner would expect you to hold (unless you are playing some form of good/bad 2NT).
- We have at least invitational values, you have a balanced hand, the opponents bid at the three level and are not sure of a fit.
- We are at favorable @ MPs.

I don't care whether the opponents are "reasonable". I double as a strong suggestion to penalize them.

I trust that my partner realizes that we have a double fit in the red suits. That means that he shouldn't sit for the double if he has a minimum opening with a lot of diamonds.

Is it possible that they make 3X when RHO got clever with an eight card spade suit and partner passed with a minimum 2353? I guess it is possible. If so, congratulate he opponents. But I don't think it is a very likely scenario.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
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#10 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 03:32

How come PK has not replied here yet in size 7 font?
(-: Zel :-)

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#11 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 05:29

Partner had

K97
J85
AJ97
K84

and passed my x. Unfortunately declarer had

QJT8532
AT76
-
T5 (giving dummy x Qx xxxxx AQJxx - sorry, I'm posting from my phone)

and easily wrapped up 730. My partner thought my x was insane and I whined diplomatically remarked "RHO bid like a joke, what can I do?" RHO disagreed with this assessment but was happy with his score so didn't mind too much.
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#12 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 07:37

Usually a declaration of this type ( pass then bidding ) denotes an hand like that in post 11(force + distribution : 6/7 p. with 6-4).
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#13 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 08:13

View PostLovera, on 2014-August-28, 07:37, said:

Usually a declaration of this type ( pass then bidding ) denotes an hand like that in post 11(force + distribution : 6/7 p. with 6-4).


I'm not convinced. Not bidding on the first round with this 7-4 hand is somewhat risky; partner with 2 kings and out won't enter the auction, but you're cold for 4S.

ahydra
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#14 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 08:15

I am losing confidence in gwnn's law. When opps make stupid bids it can mean that they are in a 4-1 fit but it can also mean that they underbid drastically.
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#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 08:18

View Posthelene_t, on 2014-August-28, 08:15, said:

I am losing confidence in gwnn's law. When opps make stupid bids it can mean that they are in a 4-1 fit but it can also mean that they underbid drastically.

You are forgetting Csaba's Corrollary - when Gwnn's Law fails it will be against gwnn.
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#16 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 09:52

View Postahydra, on 2014-August-28, 08:13, said:

I'm not convinced. Not bidding on the first round with this 7-4 hand is somewhat risky; partner with 2 kings and out won't enter the auction, but you're cold for 4S.

ahydra

Infact i intended another thing: what i said is referred to bidding to reach at the end and when part is passed not in this case, sorry.
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#17 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 11:24

View PostTrinidad, on 2014-August-28, 03:09, said:

- You have told partner your distribution in the red suits. He will expect you to be about 3-2 in the blacks.
- You have about an ace more than what my partner would expect you to hold (unless you are playing some form of good/bad 2NT).
- We have at least invitational values, you have a balanced hand, the opponents bid at the three level and are not sure of a fit.
- We are at favorable @ MPs.

I don't care whether the opponents are "reasonable". I double as a strong suggestion to penalize them.

I trust that my partner realizes that we have a double fit in the red suits. That means that he shouldn't sit for the double if he has a minimum opening with a lot of diamonds.

Is it possible that they make 3X when RHO got clever with an eight card spade suit and partner passed with a minimum 2353? I guess it is possible. If so, congratulate he opponents. But I don't think it is a very likely scenario.

Rik

Of course, I really meant to write:

"- You have told partner your distribution in the red suits. He will expect you to be about 3-2 in the blacks. He can decide for himself.
- Having an ace more than what my partner would expect is NOT a good reason to double.
- We may have at least invitational values, but remember: Points, Schmoints! And you may have a balanced hand, but the opponents won't and obviously have a fit.
- We are at favorable @ MPs. But the opponents also saw the vulnerability and they know it is MPs. How stupid do you think they are? Of course, they will make 3!

Is it possible that they go down in 3X when RHO got silly with a six card spade suit and partner passed with a minimum 4342? I guess it is possible. If so, humiliate the opponents. But I don't think it is a very likely scenario."

But somehow my keyboard was malfunctioning...

;)

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
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#18 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 11:42

View Postgwnn, on 2014-August-27, 16:31, said:

sitting 3rd seat, favourable@MP's, you pick up: A 6 K 8 6 4 K Q T 5 9 5 2
against reasonable oops at a late-night MP tournament, you see the bidding go like this:
1-(_P)-1-(2)
_X-(2)-3-(_P)
_P-(3)-??
3 was not really the value bid, but what do you do now? Partner is a sound opener.
Double seems sensible :)

View Postgwnn, on 2014-August-28, 05:29, said:

Partner had K 9 7 J 8 5 A J 9 7 K 8 4
and passed my x. Unfortunately declarer had Q J T 8 5 3 2 A T 7 6 - T 5
(giving dummy x Q x x x x x x A Q J x x - sorry, I'm posting from my phone)
and easily wrapped up 730. My partner thought my x was insane and I whined diplomatically remarked "RHO bid like a joke, what can I do?" RHO disagreed with this assessment but was happy with his score so didn't mind too much.
Congratulate the dog-walker :(
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#19 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 13:47

View PostZelandakh, on 2014-August-28, 03:32, said:

How come PK has not replied here yet in size 7 font?


I'm gonna need a bigger font.
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#20 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2014-August-28, 18:28

I don't like the X - I would pass. I don't really like pd's opening on this 9 loser piece of trash. I don't like the 2C overcall. I don't like the way declarer misbid his hand.
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