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(1NT) - 2NT A new idea?

#1 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 09:38

A lot of systems over 1NT now use 2 and 2 as artificial. Most popular in the UK is to play 2 as Landy (Majors) and 2 as Multi (either Major). This means that with natural minor-suit hands you can either bid 3m or pass.

Against a strong NT 3m can be wide ranging, since your side is not too worried about missing game. You might bid 3 with Qx xxx KQJ9xxx x or Ax Qxx KQJ9xx xx. However, vs a weak NT it hurts your constructive bidding to lump the preempts in with the constructive hands. You can't pass with the second hand for fear of being shut out, but you'd also like to eat your cake and preempt with the first.

So I suggest using 2NT as a preempt in either minor, keeping the 3m bids for the constructive hands with a 6+ card minor. At least against a weak NT.

The rationale behind having it this way round is that the opps are more likely to want to penalise you when you have the constructive hand (since they may not have a game). It also hurts their constructive auction when you "preempt" with 2NT by taking away the opps' cue bid.

You will lose the ablity to show a hand with both minors (most people's use for 2NT) but this is not a particularly important or common hand type.
'In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.' - Douglas Adams
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 09:47

In my experience, most folks use a 2NT overcall as some kind of strong 2 suiter and use 3 to show both minors
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 10:03

Howard and I are doing a bit the opposite, with 2NT as a "sound 3 bid" and 3 as weak. A 2 overcall would be natural.

Unlike hrothgar (apparently) I don't think being able to show both minors over a hand that most of the field will open 1m is particularly high priority.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#4 User is offline   trevahound 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 11:38

View Posthrothgar, on 2014-August-21, 09:47, said:

In my experience, most folks use a 2NT overcall as some kind of strong 2 suiter and use 3 to show both minors


I thought this was "bridge", but I was informed that this isn't GCC legal, as bids higher than 2 over their "natural" NT opening must have at least one known anchor suit. Absolutely ridiculous, of course.
"I suggest a chapter on "strongest dummy opposite my free bids." For example, someone might wonder how I once put this hand down as dummy in a spade contract: AQ10xxx void AKQxx KQ. Did I start with Michaels? Did I cuebid until partner was forced to pick one of my suits? No, I was just playing with Brian (6S made when the trump king dropped singleton)." David Wright
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 12:17

View Postbroze, on 2014-August-21, 09:38, said:


So I suggest using 2NT as a preempt in either minor, keeping the 3m bids for the constructive hands with a 6+ card minor. At least against a weak NT.

...

You will lose the ablity to show a hand with both minors (most people's use for 2NT) but this is not a particularly important or common hand type.


You also lose the ability to show a GF 2-suiter, but then again, when's the last time that came up?

I like this idea and will probably try it.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#6 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 12:20

View Postbroze, on 2014-August-21, 09:38, said:

So I suggest using 2NT as a preempt in either minor, keeping the 3m bids for the constructive hands with a 6+ card minor. At least against a weak NT.

I play this the other way around with two of my partners.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#7 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 13:16

I've been playing this the other way round (2NT a good 3m bid and 3m pre-emptive) for a few years now. You'll even see it written up (in passing) in the October EBU magazine...
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#8 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 13:25

I play it the other way around too.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#9 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 13:35

I've been playing it the other way round for a couple of years but have just swiched to direct = good.
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#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 14:58

View PostPhilKing, on 2014-August-21, 13:35, said:

I've been playing it the other way round for a couple of years but have just swiched to direct = good.


Either way, you can put other hand types into 2NT. Can any of you tell me what you do?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#11 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 16:11

View PostVampyr, on 2014-August-21, 14:58, said:

Either way, you can put other hand types into 2NT. Can any of you tell me what you do?


Just the weak minor.
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#12 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 16:34

Ok, so not so new. Always the way - had never come across it before. I clearly need to read my magazine more carefully!

However it does much seem better to me to have the 2N as the weak hand. You lose the ability to have pard crank up the auction but you avoid giving the opps a cue bid, which seems more valuable to me.

Do all you people who use it also employ against a strong NT?
'In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.' - Douglas Adams
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#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 16:56

If you are using this then it might make some sense to play that 2NT is the range that corresponds to the 1NT opening, so that 3m is weak over a strong NT and strong over a weak NT.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#14 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 17:01

View Postbroze, on 2014-August-21, 16:34, said:

However it does much seem better to me to have the 2N as the weak hand. You lose the ability to have pard crank up the auction but you avoid giving the opps a cue bid, which seems more valuable to me.

Bidding only 2NT is quite bad when you have diamonds, because you allow them space for Stayman, transfers, and a balanced-values double


Quote

Do all you people who use it also employ against a strong NT?

Yes.


... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#15 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 20:11

With 2 partners we play Meckwell over strong NTs (Any NT with 15 in it's range is strong for us).
2N is a single suited preempt, puppeting partner to 3.
3-bids are Meckwell calls promising a 4-loser hand.
Be the partner you want to play with.
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#16 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 21:09

i hate to spoil the fun for those in ACBLland but...
GCC requires a known suit for overcalls other than 2.
So, 2N as unnamed minor or as unspeciiied 2 suiter are out.

too bad 2 as a unnamed major would be nice.

Note: balancing seat anything is ok.

Maybe 2N as a cuebid then ok!? Ask the lawyers lol


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#17 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2014-August-21, 22:04

So these methods are for saner games than ACBL GCC games:
  • Games in almost any other country.
  • WBF games.
  • ACBL Mid-Chart or higher games.
  • GCC+ games in some districts of the ACBL.
Usual tournament advertising in Orange County, California for sectionals and regionals is "GCC+any no trump defense "--also common in various other districts.
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#18 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2014-August-22, 17:13

Unlike other restrictions on the GCC, I've never figured out why this went from being "any defence to NT" to this "2 or higher must promise a known suit". Must have been somebody with bad experience with "well it's this or this" (or natural, because partner always forgets; I play him to forget frequently, but don't tell my opponents about it) - but I don't know *what*.

I have had several players play "Suck-tion" against my weak NT at Mid-chart; "the next suit up, or the other two, or, yeah, I guess it was the suit bid, because he forgot again", for instance.
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#19 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2014-August-24, 03:59

When you play Landy and Multi (and maybe even an artificial Dbl), you can put some strong hands in those as well. 2NT for me is both minors, any strength.
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