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2C 18+

#1 User is offline   micsfyuen 

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Posted 2014-August-11, 21:42

Partner and I have not played competitive bridge for a long time and joined a local tournament recently, in an attempt to simplify the bidding system, we decided to make 2C 18+ instead of the more common 22+. In the tournament we played altogether 66 boards, 2C appeared 2 times and we got average results with it, but we gained more comfortable bidding in the 1-level opening and got satisfactory overall result. Partner and I are inclined to keep 2C 18+ in our partnership, but seems nobody is playing this way, is it good or bad idea after all?

our system overview:
NT ladder:
15-17 bal: open 1NT
18-19 bal without 5M: open 1m and jump NT
18-19 bal with 5M: open 2C rebid 2M
20-21 bal: open 2C rebid 2NT
22-24 bal: open 2NT

1m: 11-19, 3+cards (18-19 must be bal)
1M: 11-17, 5+cards (responder can pass with ugly 6-7)

Opener reverse bid/jump bid shows max (16-17) but can be passed, and no Lebensohl/Ingberman convention
1M - 1NT - 2 lower: limit to 11-15 instead of the more common wilder range

2C: 18+

2C - 2D: 0-7
2C - others: 8+ natural
2C - 2D - 2H/2S/3C/3D: 18-21, 5+cards, can be passed
2C - 2D - opener jump with really big hands
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#2 User is offline   yunling 

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Posted 2014-August-11, 22:39

I think it is unplayable. Your 22+ hands are too high. Finding slams over 2-2-3M/4m is almost impossible and often you cannot find your major fit below 3NT.
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#3 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2014-August-12, 16:42

It's inferior in that you'll have trouble bidding really big hands and end up too high when partner has nothing opposite your 19 count, but if it saves you some bidding disasters with complicated reverse or jump shift auctions, I think it's a perfectly playable system at matchpoint scoring.
Make sure you alert both your reverses and your 2C opening along with followups (but not the 2D response).

I think though, that if you go down this route, you should really look at (simplified) Precision systems. They accomplish much of the same simplicity with fewer of the downsides. The big minus are two:

1) All 12-14 balanced hands get opened 1D, so you lose the information about longer minor with those. (But 2C is natural, so actual club hands won't have trouble.)

2) Opponents will find it easier to come in over an artificial 1C than over a light-ish artificial 2C.
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#4 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2014-August-12, 17:29

If you do this, play 2 as 18 to near GF, and 2 opening as any GF
'I hit my peak at seven' Taylor Swift
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#5 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2014-August-12, 20:45

Did you see this thread on Bocchi-Duboin 2 opening = 18-20 hcp and balanced?

http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry774465

Finally got their book from Rome: IL SISTEMA by Bocchi-Duboin, 2010.

I have been playing this for 4 weeks now. No major boards to report yet.
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: https://bridgewithda...19/07/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canape Club is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)

Santa Fe Precision published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail . 2020. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Weiss Simplified (Canape & Relay). 2022: Canary Modernized, 2023-4: KOK Canape.
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#6 User is offline   micsfyuen 

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Posted 2014-August-13, 02:35

Thanks for the advice!
We play mainly match point, so we look for a system that works fine on the balance of probability, instead of a system that works perfectly in every scenario. Also, I may be a system geek but partner is a KISS style, partner can probably handle a few conventions but not a switch to precision.

Apparently we have two major issues that we need to tackle:
1) 22+ unbal vs 0-7: 2C-2D-jump is too high
2) 18-19 unbal with minor vs 0-5: 2C-2D-3m is too high

and we have 2 solutions to these:
for 1) have both 2C and 2D as strong bid, may study Bocchi-Duboin's style
for 2) open 1m with these hands

Issue 1 is rather low frequency (I guess 0.1% to 0.2%), we probably could just live with it.
Issue 2, I think open 1m with these will be fine, anyone could suggest the frequency of this?
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#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-August-13, 04:39

Seems to be strictly worse than a strong or Polish Club system. One obvious issue is that Opener cannot stop in 3NT with a GF hand and a minor as the longest suit; having to rebid 4m on such a hand really sucks and can easily be a disaster.

As glen points out, it would not be a bad idea to look at recruiting the 2 opening a la Benji (or reverse). But then this structure is generally seen as worse than 3 weaks or Dutch beyond low intermediate level.

For the record, if you are willing to put up with a natural 2 opening an easy structure is:

2NT = anything you like
2 = 11-14 54M or 6+ clubs
1NT = 12-14 bal or 4414
1 = nat, up to 17
1 = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1+ = GF
... - 1 = non-GF hand
... - ... - 1 = 18-20 any or 23-24 bal
... - ... - 1 = any unbal GF or 18+ 3-suited
... - ... - 1NT = 15-17 bal or 4414
... - ... - 2 = 15-17 54M or 6+ clubs
... - ... - 2 = Acol 2 in a minor
... - ... - 2M = Acol 2
... - ... - 2NT = 21-22

Obviously PC works too if you want to go for a strong NT set-up.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-August-13, 05:46

I think you should still open 1 or 1 with unbalanced hands up to about 20 or 21 points with primarily a minor suit. Then 2 followed by 3m would be forcing.

Putting the 18-point hands, or at least some of them, with 5+ in a major, into the 2 opening makes a bit more sense but it is a dilema whether 2 followed by 2M is forcing or not. You might consider responses to 2 like this:
2: don't worry I am not going to pass below game.
2: If you have 18-20 with hearts then 2 is enough.
2: If you have 18-20 with spades then 2 is enough, but I do have enough heart support for game if that is your suit.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#9 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2014-August-13, 10:19

I used to play 2C = 18-21 with one or two suits (5-5), and 2D GF, plus some cunning 1x-...-2NT stuff to show 6-4 or better shapes. This then means that the 1x openings are still very wide-range, but if opener jump-bids on the second round he has exactly 5-4 and no better, which helps responder make best use of the cramped auction.

As others have suggested a strong club system is probably easiest if you want to play limited 1x openings. If done well you can be extra-aggressive, e.g. regularly opening 10 counts with a major, to keep opponents out.

Edit: for this 2C=18+, helene's structure is pretty good too. Minors aren't worth worrying about a lot of the time since you're normally just going to play 3NT.

ahydra
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#10 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2014-August-14, 05:03

View Postmicsfyuen, on 2014-August-11, 21:42, said:


2C: 18+

2C - 2D: 0-7
2C - others: 8+ natural
2C - 2D - 2H/2S/3C/3D: 18-21, 5+cards, can be passed
2C - 2D - opener jump with really big hands

Just 1-2 remarks

As a response to 2C you have lots of bids, that deal with good hands, I recommend to
increase the bids, that deal with hands, that have no game interest vs. a min 2C opening bid,
in the end this goes in the direction of Helene's post.

The range 0-7 for the 2D response is to large, partner has an expected value of holding 6 2/3
HCPs, when you open 2C, and if he does, you want to be in game, so you should lower this range,
so that the opener can look for the safes part score vs. a neg. response, that will reduce the risk
of getting too high.

You already weakened your req. for 1 level openings, to 11, you can reduce this to 10, or brilliant
looking 9, that way, you will add. precision to your preempt openings, and get something back in return
for the problems you will have, if you hold strong hands.
The problem with a strong 2C opening is, that you have problems bidding good hands, those problems get
larger, if the frequency of the 2C opening goes up.
If you are willing to pay the price make sure, you get something in return.

In general: If it works for you, with regards to the tournaments you play, go for it.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#11 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2014-August-16, 10:22

View Postmicsfyuen, on 2014-August-13, 02:35, said:

Thanks for the advice!
We play mainly match point, so we look for a system that works fine on the balance of probability, instead of a system that works perfectly in every scenario. Also, I may be a system geek but partner is a KISS style, partner can probably handle a few conventions but not a switch to precision.

Apparently we have two major issues that we need to tackle:
1) 22+ unbal vs 0-7: 2C-2D-jump is too high
2) 18-19 unbal with minor vs 0-5: 2C-2D-3m is too high

and we have 2 solutions to these:
for 1) have both 2C and 2D as strong bid, may study Bocchi-Duboin's style
for 2) open 1m with these hands

Issue 1 is rather low frequency (I guess 0.1% to 0.2%), we probably could just live with it.
Issue 2, I think open 1m with these will be fine, anyone could suggest the frequency of this?

(1) 22+ hands unbalanced is hard to calculate as many 19+ hands qualify. 22+ = 0.4%

(2) 18-19 balanced = 1.3%, thus unbalanced would be ~1.3% and majors or minors only = ~5% of those. (Ignoring 0-5 responding hands)

NOTE: 42 pages of notes on Bocchi 2 and 2 openings: www.bridgewithdan.com
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: https://bridgewithda...19/07/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canape Club is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)

Santa Fe Precision published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail . 2020. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Weiss Simplified (Canape & Relay). 2022: Canary Modernized, 2023-4: KOK Canape.
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#12 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-August-17, 15:03

View Postmicsfyuen, on 2014-August-13, 02:35, said:


and we have 2 solutions to these:
for 1) have both 2C and 2D as strong bid



This is fairly popular here in England; search for "Benji Acol".
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#13 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2015-January-18, 03:37

I increase 2 bidding in this way: you valutes the hand with LTC and moltiply for 5 this number. If MW points + only longness (1 point from 5th card and so on) is more of number of losers x 5 you can open with 2. But you can consider also shortness ulheriorly and not only longness that should take at 18(Usually with 4 losers we must have almost 20 points(=pair) to open.) In this way is more delimited space for reverse but i suggest to retain 2 If partner has not more of 1,5 controlls (3 kings or 1A +KQ in other suit),.(Lovera)
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#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-January-18, 07:36

You can't really give yourself credit for length and shortness in the same hand. Anyway if you want the use the above requirements for your 2 opening, you might want to consider playing Benji, as mentioned above many times, or putting various strong hand types into a Multi.

But it sounds like you really would prefer to be playing a strong club system.
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#15 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2015-January-18, 09:06

View PostVampyr, on 2015-January-18, 07:36, said:

You can't really give yourself credit for length and shortness in the same hand. Anyway if you want the use the above requirements for your 2 opening, you might want to consider playing Benji, as mentioned above many times, or putting various strong hand types into a Multi.

But it sounds like you really would prefer to be playing a strong club system.

This rule (LTC x 5) is not mine but i have found it in a book of G. Barbone ("Il libro completo del bridge") as i have already said in another post. I have taken only the variation for longness that allows to use it more frequently (en passant i use Stayman system).
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