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GIB thinks a passed hand 1NT is natural?

#1 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2014-July-26, 00:43

Like it says on the tin.



To me, and to most live players I think, 1NT by a passed hand is "mini-Unusual," 4-4 or 4-5 in the two lowest unbid suits. Overcalling 1NT after having already denied an opening bid is a recipe for disaster.

But GIB says "Balancing notrump: 11 HCP, 12- total points." Presumably the simple intersection of an unpassed 11-14 notrump, and a passed hand.
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-July-26, 02:48

Yea this is standard. I don't like it either. Otoh I don't think it should be a high priority to add more convention to the gib system
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#3 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-July-26, 03:43

We've had this discussion before. I agree with GIB - 1NT should be 10-11 nat.

Protecting with the minors is a rookie error imo - you are opening up a can of worms.

You could usefully play it as hearts and a minor, I guess, but seriously, anything other than minor suit trash.
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#4 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-July-26, 05:16

Update: playing 1NT as the minors by a passed hand is definitely not standard at the top level. I did a search for this exact auction on "the database" and it occurred 7 times. Six occurrences were natural and one was for the minors.

KT72AKT4543T5 Result: -50 2NT (it was cold, but declarer took a no play line). 1 was making.

K62J98KTAT973 +430 in 3NT

KQ72K8T876K73 -200 in 1NT with 1 scoring 110. 1NT was unwise, imo, since we are short in the other major.

Q64KQ88754A52 This auction occurred twice, resulting in +150 and +600. One of the two partners invited with 2NT holding JT32AJ72A2QJ9. Game was a little fortunate in that diamonds were 5-2, but basically it's right to bid low count games when you are playing two against one (this is known in some circles as a Haggis sandwich).

J975AJ42J95KQ +120 as opposed to collecting +100 from 1.

QJ92QJ987J2 A3 An easy +630 with opener being the filling in a classic Haggis sandwich.

Anyway the silver bullet is the hand where 1NT was used to show the minors:

K3J38764AJ752 -420. The opponents gratefully bid up to 4, which was a good contract and cold on the lie because of their secondary heart fit. The bottom line is that if you protect with a moderate hand with fewer than three hearts you are highly likely to get a bad board. Think about it - if partner had 4+ hearts and a decent hand, he will generally have acted on the first round, so just be grateful the opponents have not found their best contract yet.
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#5 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2014-July-26, 05:43

View PostPhilKing, on 2014-July-26, 05:16, said:

Q64AJ72A2QJ9 This auction occurred twice, resulting in +150 and +600. One of the two partners invited with 2NT holding JT32AJ72A2QJ9. Game was a little fortunate in that diamonds were 5-2, but basically it's right to bid low count games when you are playing two against one (this is known in some circles as a Haggis sandwich).


This was a passed hand at two tables?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#6 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-July-26, 05:45

View Postgnasher, on 2014-July-26, 05:43, said:

This was a passed hand at two tables?


Sorry, edited.
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#7 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2014-July-26, 09:40

Wow, turned out to be a more interesting thread than I thought. My thinking must be coloured by the fact that I don't pass very many 11 pointers, and that my unpassed balancing notrumps tend to end at 12 rather than 11.

Is it only a passed balancing 1NT that the top players are using as 10-11 balanced, or do they also play P-P-P-1S-1NT that way?

I agree there is is something different about P-P-1S-P-P-1NT, in that overcaller's partner can still have 14ish.
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#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-July-26, 09:58

Yes, only when balancing. A direct seat 1nt by a passed hand is artificial
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#9 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-July-26, 10:18

View PostSiegmund, on 2014-July-26, 09:40, said:

Wow, turned out to be a more interesting thread than I thought. My thinking must be coloured by the fact that I don't pass very many 11 pointers, and that my unpassed balancing notrumps tend to end at 12 rather than 11.

Is it only a passed balancing 1NT that the top players are using as 10-11 balanced, or do they also play P-P-P-1S-1NT that way?

I agree there is is something different about P-P-1S-P-P-1NT, in that overcaller's partner can still have 14ish.


There's no significant difference I can fathom in p-p-1s-p-p-1NT and p-1s-p-p-1NT. I did a search on that auction and the results were pretty similar. I may post the hands later.
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