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1h-1s-2d-3c-?-? 4th suit GF auction issues

#1 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2014-July-08, 09:49

(1) What is the default rebid by opener, is it better to use 3 or 3? What do you bid with something along the lines of xx AKxxx AJxx xx or x AKxxx AJxx xxx?
(2) If opener rebids 3, what do 3/3/3nt by responder mean:
A) How many hearts does 3 promise?
B) How many spades does 3 promise?
C) If 3nt, what's the implication of going through 4th suit first instead of bidding 3nt directly over 2?

What's your rebid as opener with - Axxxx JT9xx AKx?
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#2 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-July-08, 10:13

View PostStephen Tu, on 2014-July-08, 09:49, said:

(1) What is the default rebid by opener, is it better to use 3 or 3? What do you bid with something along the lines of xx AKxxx AJxx xx or x AKxxx AJxx xxx?
(2) If opener rebids 3, what do 3/3/3nt by responder mean:
A) How many hearts does 3 promise?
B) How many spades does 3 promise?
C) If 3nt, what's the implication of going through 4th suit first instead of bidding 3nt directly over 2?

What's your rebid as opener with - Axxxx JT9xx AKx?

(1) This will be a minority position..3nt by opener, letting the club suit take care of itself and therefore giving more meaning to other continuations.
(2) If I have bid 3, responder's 3/ 3 are attempts to set trumps and forcing --3NT, instead, is to play.

A) 6
B) 3
C) ?? Who is bidding 3NT at what point? If Responder goes through 4SF instead of bidding 3NT directly after the 2D rebid, she was interested in Opener's Spade, heart, or diamond quantity. If she now bids 3NT, she wants to be in 3NT.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#3 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2014-July-08, 10:46

you bid 3s with that shape. if you have a 3541 type hand that was too strong to bid 2s over 1s you jump to 4s now.

if you never raise on 3, your bidding style is too alien to me for me to offer a worthwhile answer and in my mind it's unworkable due to situations like this.
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#4 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-July-08, 10:48

View PostStephen Tu, on 2014-July-08, 09:49, said:

(1) What is the default rebid by opener, is it better to use 3 or 3? What do you bid with something along the lines of xx AKxxx AJxx xx or x AKxxx AJxx xxx?
(2) If opener rebids 3, what do 3/3/3nt by responder mean:
A) How many hearts does 3 promise?
B) How many spades does 3 promise?
C) If 3nt, what's the implication of going through 4th suit first instead of bidding 3nt directly over 2?

What's your rebid as opener with - Axxxx JT9xx AKx?


1. Not sure there is a "default" here, logic says 3, but experience says 3. 3 as default doesn't guarantee 6 cards, but since hand has no stop for 3NT, it usually has a good 5 carder (worth 6), so responder can assume 6 cards.

xx AKxxx AJxx xx --> default
x AKxxx AJxx xxx --> default

2a. Three cards.
2b. Six cards.
2c. If 3 is the default: direct has club stopper, indirect has 1/2 stopper. If 3 is 5-5, doesn't "show" anything. It's just natural bidding.

Axxxx JT9xx AKx --> 3 if natural, maybe 3NT if default.
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#5 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-July-08, 11:02

It seems there is confusion from the OP. I don't think A), B) and C) were within 2). I answered under the assumption that A,B,C where questions about the next bid after:

1H-1S
2D-3C
?
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#6 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-July-08, 11:21

3 . Partner could have all kind of things including a slamish hand with three hearts. 3 shows six and 3 shows three.
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#7 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2014-July-08, 11:30

I thought it was clear from the wording of (2) and the fact that I changed to A/B/C and positioned those questions under (2), and that the statement following (2) ended with a colon suggesting further stuff below, not a question mark, meant that those questions were relating to (2) and asking what responder's bids after 1h-1s-2d-3c-3d meant. Not the case? Don't see why it was confusing.

Wank, is it really best to jump to 4s with 3541 strong? What if responder was trying to set up a forcing heart or diamond raise?
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#8 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2014-July-08, 11:45

This is clearly a problematic auction and I think it's worth adding some artificiality to improve it. I know of (at least) two possible improvements:

A: Play 3c,3d,3h as inv+ transfers and 3s as GF with no clear direction. I think I got this from Fred, who posted about it here some time ago.

B: Play 1h-1s-1n as balanced or diamonds, saving a whole level if responder wants to GF. Awm wrote this up on bridgewinners some time ago, search for Zirconia.
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#9 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2014-July-08, 13:49

stephen this is one of the reasons why the modern way is to respond 2c with most Gf hands without 5s or 5d, knowing that you can always find your spade fit after 2s-3s with serious/non-serious 3nt to differentiate strength. playing that style going through 4sf like this will have 5 spades.

note if responder has a strong diamond raise playing a more traditional style, he can jump to 4d to set trumps forcing, so that shouldn't be one of the possibilities.
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#10 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2014-July-08, 14:39

I guess that's workable using 3 as the punt by opener, denying spades, it's just that I don't think I can count on that being parsed by partner without specifically discussing the sequence, I don't think it's really considered "standard". I like karlson's option a, but again it's a matter of convincing my partners to play it and many of them aren't as in to science as I am. It took long enough getting them even to play non-serious 3nt. Getting them to switch to a 2 on 4=3=4=2 would be another battle.
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#11 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2014-July-08, 17:07

View PostStephen Tu, on 2014-July-08, 14:39, said:

Getting them to switch to a 2 on 4=3=4=2 would be another battle.


Switching to 2 would be good enough for most purposes (in fact I think that style is actually better than bidding 2), and I think most people could come around to that.

4333 will still exist as a "problem" hand, but a lot of people are used to bidding 2 over 1 on 3433.
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#12 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2014-July-10, 16:31

View PostStephen Tu, on 2014-July-08, 14:39, said:

I guess that's workable using 3 as the punt by opener, denying spades, it's just that I don't think I can count on that being parsed by partner without specifically discussing the sequence, I don't think it's really considered "standard". I like karlson's option a, but again it's a matter of convincing my partners to play it and many of them aren't as in to science as I am. It took long enough getting them even to play non-serious 3nt. Getting them to switch to a 2 on 4=3=4=2 would be another battle.


Another possible solution (that I like to play) that might be simpler (but also accident prone if you forget) is to play 1H 1S 2red 2S as art GF, and to play 1H p 2S is 6-10 or w/e with 6 spades. This also solves the lesser problem of 1H 1S 2H being a very bad auction (3minor third suit forcing nonsense etc).

But yeah this is the death auction for a reason and you either need some science or to just deal with having a hopeless auction. Whether or not it's worth adding one of the many fixes to solve this is up to you, but there is no great solution if you are gonna play that 3C is your art GF.
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#13 User is offline   relknes 

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Posted 2014-July-11, 08:16

View PostStephen Tu, on 2014-July-08, 09:49, said:

(1) What is the default rebid by opener, is it better to use 3 or 3? What do you bid with something along the lines of xx AKxxx AJxx xx or x AKxxx AJxx xxx?
(2) If opener rebids 3, what do 3/3/3nt by responder mean:
A) How many hearts does 3 promise?
B) How many spades does 3 promise?
C) If 3nt, what's the implication of going through 4th suit first instead of bidding 3nt directly over 2?

What's your rebid as opener with - Axxxx JT9xx AKx?

(1) Default for me is the cheapest rebid of one of their suits, which would be 3 here, and that is what you should bid with xx AKxxx AJxx xx or x AKxxx AJxx xxx.
(2A) doubleton support
(2B) 6 spades
(2C) half stop
(3) 3N
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#14 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2014-July-11, 12:01

View PostPhantomSac, on 2014-July-10, 16:31, said:

Another possible solution (that I like to play) that might be simpler (but also accident prone if you forget) is to play 1H 1S 2red 2S as art GF, and to play 1H p 2S is 6-10 or w/e with 6 spades. This also solves the lesser problem of 1H 1S 2H being a very bad auction (3minor third suit forcing nonsense etc).

But yeah this is the death auction for a reason and you either need some science or to just deal with having a hopeless auction. Whether or not it's worth adding one of the many fixes to solve this is up to you, but there is no great solution if you are gonna play that 3C is your art GF.


I agree that you'd need to play 1-2 as a weak jump shift to make this workable. If I played it, I'd use 1-1-2-3 as invitational. It's not great to get to the 3-level, but at least if partner is kind enough to rebid 2 instead, then I can bid 2 as invitational, now that 2 is available to use on game forces (whether used as standard 4th suit forcing or as a marionette to 2).
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#15 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2014-July-11, 14:52

View Postjallerton, on 2014-July-11, 12:01, said:

I agree that you'd need to play 1-2 as a weak jump shift to make this workable. If I played it, I'd use 1-1-2-3 as invitational. It's not great to get to the 3-level, but at least if partner is kind enough to rebid 2 instead, then I can bid 2 as invitational, now that 2 is available to use on game forces (whether used as standard 4th suit forcing or as a marionette to 2).


Yep exactly. A different way to play if you wanna be really sick is after 1H 1S 2C 2D is natural non forcing and 2S is art GF. You lose room when you have a GF so nobody will actually play this, but it's fun when it comes up and it solves the gross problem hands that usually have to pass with a doubleton club or false preference to a stiff or bid 2N very light. But what you said is normal heh.
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#16 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2014-July-13, 18:03

Has anyone mentioned Meckwell's treatment for this special case :

1H - 1S
2D - 2S! = artificial GF ( instead of the 4th suit, 3C )

They now consider 2S! here as a " popular modern treatment " .
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#17 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2014-July-13, 19:13

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2014-July-13, 18:03, said:

Has anyone mentioned Meckwell's treatment for this special case :

1H - 1S
2D - 2S! = artificial GF ( instead of the 4th suit, 3C )

They now consider 2S! here as a " popular modern treatment " .


That seems like a really good treatment, thanks.
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#18 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2014-July-14, 01:45

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2014-July-13, 18:03, said:

Has anyone mentioned Meckwell's treatment for this special case :

1H - 1S
2D - 2S! = artificial GF ( instead of the 4th suit, 3C )

They now consider 2S! here as a " popular modern treatment " .

Yes, in several posts.
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#19 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-July-25, 08:11

It is very often the case in non-fit auctions at the 3 level that using the cheapest call as a grope works well. Here, using 3 this way seems to be the easiest way of maximising bidding space but the auction is never going to be great after this start.

Since we are also talking about alternative solutions I will mention the two I usually bring up in cases like this. First of all you can play that a 1NT response to 1 is game forcing with spades and have the 1 response become in effect identical to a forcing 1NT after a 1 opening. Secondly you can reverse the whole thing and play a 1 response as invitational or better and then the 1NT and 2m responses are non-forcing (with 1NT showing spades). Obviously both of these are highly non-Standard with the second being effectively a completely new system to learn (and not ideal for this forum). Meanwhile the former is ideal for including a 1NT Gazilli based around the diamond suit that may well work out similarly to Adam's Zirconia, although I have not read the piece so it is hard to say.
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