[chasetb]

I bid aggressively, I admit, but unless the suit is AKQJ8, AKQJ9, AKQJT, or AKQT9, why the heck is it not passing 3NT???

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[johnu]

Same reason you didn't pass 4♥?

[chasetb]

Last time I checked John, a 4-3 fit is usually better than a 5-1 fit, and GIB would have still bid the same way with ♠AKQ and ♥Axxxx

[Bbradley62]

Rather than modifying how GIB deals with Stayman, I'd prefer that he simply didn't open 1N with the North hand.

[steve2005]

silly bidding by Gib.

5♣ is your spot, don't see how your supposed to find by starting to look at 4 level.

[johnu]

chasetb, on 2014-July-03, 14:51, said:

Last time I checked John, a 4-3 fit is usually better than a 5-1 fit, and GIB would have still bid the same way with ♠AKQ and ♥Axxxx

Why does GIB N have to have 3 spades? You can see 3 spades after dummy comes down but there doesn't seem to be any reason why there couldn't be only 2. And with a random 3 card spade fit, I don't think 4♠ will play better than a 5-1 heart fit where N has very good hearts. I don't think GIB would bid 4♥ with your example with such a bad suit. Of course, with a likely 4 or 5 tricks in hearts, I don't know why GIB would pull from 3NT with the original hand (or with any hand for that matter since 3NT is a drop dead bid unless N had 4 spades).

[the hog]

Bbradley62, on 2014-July-03, 15:29, said:

Rather than modifying how GIB deals with Stayman, I'd prefer that he simply didn't open 1N with the North hand.

Why? 1NT is a fine opening on this balanced hand that is in the NT range. It is an obvious 1NT opening.

[1eyedjack]

North should pass 3N.

I applaud the 1N opener, and I would far rather that than have to introduce the baggage associated with including a bal 15-17 hand in a 1M opener.

[Lovera]

In Stayman system that i play is not possible to open 1 NT with a 5th major; expecially with a suit like this one - compact or half compact - is correct to declare 1 heart for 3 heart is second round. In Stayman system also is not possible declare on two level without having at least 12 points. Then the declaration may be 1H p 1NT (spade not declarable) p 3H p 4C p 5C.

[helene_t]

johnu, on 2014-July-03, 14:13, said:

Same reason you didn't pass 4♥?

That's a bit unfair. 4♠ can't promise more than four spades and opener can bid 4NT with a doubleton spades.

[johnu]

helene_t, on 2014-July-04, 08:55, said:

That's a bit unfair. 4♠ can't promise more than four spades and opener can bid 4NT with a doubleton spades.

Why pass 4♥? With ♠xxxx, I don't want to play in spades opposite a random 3 card spade suit because it is almost certainly going to be a hopeless contract, and obviously not opposite 2 spades. You know GIB has completely gone off the rails by bidding 4♥ so you have no idea what will happen if you bid 4♠. Maybe GIB will keep on bidding hearts until the cows come home, or jump to slam because it suddenly thinks you are making a slam try. At this point, GIB is bidding without a script and if the hearts are really good, 4♥ may be the best that you can do.

Even with a human partner who takes you out of 4♥ it probably is right to pass but for a different reason. The most likely reason I can think of is that a human partner missorted their hand and has 6 or 7 hearts. Either that, or you're playing with a beginner who might pass 4♠ no matter what they have in spades.

[johnu]

Lovera, on 2014-July-04, 08:51, said:

In Stayman system that i play is not possible to open 1 NT with a 5th major; expecially with a suit like this one - compact or half compact - is correct to declare 1 heart for 3 heart is second round. In Stayman system also is not possible declare on two level without having at least 12 points. Then the declaration may be 1H p 1NT (spade not declarable) p 3H p 4C p 5C.

And your system is correct because???

[Lovera]

johnu, on 2014-July-04, 10:52, said:

And your system is correct because???

What means is correct because ? I play Stayman and those are the indications: such for 1 NT are requested : an hand balanced among 4-3-3-3 or 4-4-3-2 or 5-3-3-2 (5th only diamond or clubs) otherwise i can't open 1 NT force 16-18;i wonder myself because this system is good and very known (but , honestly, not recent [copyright 1955] The complete Stayman systeme of contract bidding i have the third edition with preface of Mario Franco.

[steve2005]

I have a different take on this I think this is too strong for 1N, worth 18 due to semi-solid ♥

should open 1♥ and rebid 2N

I ran it thru Kaplan evaluation and it agreed

K&R (A86 AKQT2 75 KT5) = 18.25
DK = 18-

[Lovera]

steve2005, on 2014-July-04, 12:09, said:

I have a different take on this I think this is too strong for 1N, worth 18 due to semi-solid ♥

should open 1♥ and rebid 2N

I ran it thru Kaplan evaluation and it agreed

K&R (A86 AKQT2 75 KT5) = 18.25
DK = 18-

... When opener must bid after a response force is not specified, you can have a hand that can be classified in terms of strength, in one of the following three categories: 1) minimum [13-16 points]; 2) inviting [17-19 points]; 3) forced to run [20 points or more]. The hand "minimal" is that have the requirements for an opening statement or little more. Its radius is of 13-16 points. The hand "inviting" is that will be able to produce the manche if responder has 9-10 points. A hand "forcing to run" is that having 20 or more points and that needs of 6 points to produce a contract for closure (pages 59 and 60 of the book indicated). In Stayman systeme your hand is valuted 19 points (16 Milton Work + 1Goren + 2 points the 5th card in compact suit ) and needs (in that system) of a jump declaration to show force like 1 H - 3 H. Stayman, Kaplan Sheinwold, Roth Stone are system that use 5th major but i don't know if are difference of bidding, i like (and suggest) Stayman and in that system is so. Bye.

[1eyedjack]

Lovera, on 2014-July-04, 13:31, said:

... When opener must bid after a response force is not specified, you can have a hand that can be classified in terms of strength, in one of the following three categories: 1) minimum [13 11-16 points];

FYP

And that is the main flaw with not opening 1N in the first place.

[Bbradley62]

Jack: Lovera plays 1NT=16-18; surely he doesn't open 11 point hands.

[chasetb]

Personally, I would open the North hand 1♥, because the hand is primed for a suit contract between the Aces and Kings, and the worthless doubleton. I'll overbid with it slightly. However, I don't mind it being opened 1NT, it does get across the HCP (for bean counters only) and the relative shape.

To show how obsessed with Hearts GIB is, I was goofing off in Just Play Bridge on BBO and had the hand below. I didn't make the 3♥ bid, but that is what the bid promised.

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[Lovera]

Bbradley62, on 2014-July-04, 22:07, said:

Jack: Lovera plays 1NT=16-18; surely he doesn't open 11 point hands.

Thanks.

[Lovera]

chasetb, on 2014-July-04, 22:33, said:

Personally, I would open the North hand 1♥, because the hand is primed for a suit contract between the Aces and Kings, and the worthless doubleton. I'll overbid with it slightly. However, I don't mind it being opened 1NT, it does get across the HCP (for bean counters only) and the relative shape.

To show how obsessed with Hearts GIB is, I was goofing off in Just Play Bridge on BBO and hand the hand below. I didn't make the 3♥ bid, but that is what the bid promised.

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8) (s) K 7 (h) A J 5 4 (d) K Q 8 6 3 © A 10 Declare 1 diamond and not1 NT - With distribution 5-4-2-2 there are more advantage for play with trump that could be lose opening 1 NT. The declaration of 2 heart (after any normal reponse) is a rever in contigous suits..Not is any proibition to open 1 NT with a hand 5-4-2-2, but in general color declaration will take you to better resultance (pag. 108 Chapter VII Opening declaration of 1 NT). In your hand there is a doubleton and not is covered a suit then is better to open 1 diamond. To declare NT all suit must be covered otherwise opp develope tricks that you can't stop.