[EricK]

barmar, on 2014-June-30, 09:23, said:

The sequence I always wonder about is 1m - 1X - 3NT. The "standard" meaning of this is that opener has a good opening hand and a long running minor. But many bad players will bid this with a strong balanced hand, even though that's what a 2NT response would have shown as well. They essentially have two bids for the same hand, and no good explanation for when they bid one versus the other.

I think this one just comes from old fashioned "bid what you think you can make". For some reason, they're worried responder will pass them in 2NT when game would make.

In traditional weak NT Acol, a 1NT opening is 12-14; a 1NT rebid is 15-16; a 2NT rebid (of a 1 over 1 response) is 17-18; and a 3NT response is 19 (or, I suppose, a bad 20, or a hand otherwise unsuitable for a 2NT opening - which would include the long minor hands)

[whereagles]

helene_t, on 2014-June-29, 13:00, said:

In the Netherlands, there is a very common misconception that says that an overcall denies opening strength and that dbl just shows 12+ any shape. I have no idea where it comes from.

I have the impression that was the old way to play take-out doubles. Old, as in "in the inception of the take-out dbl".

[whereagles]

barmar, on 2014-June-30, 09:23, said:

The sequence I always wonder about is 1m - 1X - 3NT. The "standard" meaning of this is that opener has a good opening hand and a long running minor. But many bad players will bid this with a strong balanced hand, even though that's what a 2NT response would have shown as well. (...)

It is playable to use 2NT as 18 and 3NT as 19. Not ideal, but playable.

[gwnn]

It is also playable never to bid 3NT at all...

[FrancesHinden]

Vampyr, on 2014-June-29, 15:22, said:

I think this idea may have been popular in England many years ago. If I am not mistaken, I have seen it in books by Reese and others.

Reese was writing over many years, but you may be doing him an injustice. I have booked by Reese & others from the early 70s onwards, and they all teach the same style that I was originally taught, that a simple overcall is about 7-15 HCP and that you have to double with 16 or more. I still see this around a lot.

What's changed over the years is that Reese says you shouldn't overcall 1H with Qx KQJ8x 108xx Qx vulnerable, your hand isn't good enough; it's OK NV if you are feeling frisky.
Also the older books say that you need 13 high card points to make a t/o double on a 4441, and even more if you don't have the perfect shape. That's changed somewhat over the years.

I have to go back to a book by Coffin from 1968 to find that xx AJ AKxxx Qxxx is considered a double of a 1H opening, based on your good minor, but xx AJxx AKx Qxxx is a pass.

[Vampyr]

ahydra, on 2014-June-30, 08:36, said:

I don't know - we get around 12-18 pairs a night at the local clubs, and I'd say at least 3-4 of those would play strong twos. Weak takeouts after 1NT are somewhat rarer though, perhaps a maximum of two pairs playing them, normally just the one.

Pretty much everyone plays the 2S = 11, 2NT = 12 thing though, so much so that it's actually the de facto standard for pick-up partnerships :/

ahydra

I guess it's a regional thing.

[neilkaz]

whereagles, on 2014-June-30, 14:42, said:

It is playable to use 2NT as 18 and 3NT as 19. Not ideal, but playable.

How playable is it if PD stretched to respond with a 5 count?

[blackshoe]

Bad players get their ideas from other bad players, or from misinterpreting or misunderstanding something a good player said, or that they read in a book.

[whereagles]

neilkaz, on 2014-June-30, 18:01, said:

How playable is it if PD stretched to respond with a 5 count?

what? you never made 3NT on 24 HCP? ya newbie

[manudude03]

Well, I've seen plenty of pairs who flat out refuse to respond with less than 6 HCP, even passing 1D with AJTxx T9xx xx xx and such. And yes, most of those play a 3NT rebid as 19HCP.

[gwnn]

BTW, some people play 1NT-4♠ as "bid 6 only with 17" and 1NT-4NT as "bid 6 unless you have 15," essentially having 4♠ show 16 HCP and 4NT show 17. I know that it's not the same, calm down folks...

[gordontd]

neilkaz, on 2014-June-30, 18:01, said:

How playable is it if PD stretched to respond with a 5 count?

That's less common in the context of strong-twos, which is where this originated.

[NickRW]

EricK, on 2014-June-29, 07:22, said:

I occasionally play in a club. Most of the people there are weak players. Because this is England, they mostly play Acol of some variety - but some of the common agreements are dubious at best.

For example, it is fairly common to play, in response to a Weak NT (12-14), that 2♠ shows exactly 11 points and 2NT shows exactly 12....

Is there anything similar happening where you play?

It is very common where I play (Kent/Sussex border). I don't know where it comes from - I've always imagined that teachers teach Stayman, red suit transfers, and 2NT as an invite. Then the lessons stop (or they stop going) but they notice that some people plays 2♠ as a range ask and they just sort of fuse the ideas without thinking about it all the way through. I could be wrong.

Your opening line seems to imply you think Acol is a useless system. I'd tend to agree if imps is your game, but, IMO, it holds up well in the MP arena - or at least it does in the hands of the competent - but you could say that about any system.

Nick

[ArtK78]

gwnn, on 2014-July-01, 03:00, said:

BTW, some people play 1NT-4♠ as "bid 6 only with 17" and 1NT-4NT as "bid 6 unless you have 15," essentially having 4♠ show 16 HCP and 4NT show 17. I know that it's not the same, calm down folks...

Yes, I am one of them. Why not? The 4♠ bid is just sitting there doing nothing.

And I am quite calm.

[Vampyr]

ArtK78, on 2014-July-01, 07:46, said:

Yes, I am one of them. Why not? The 4♠ bid is just sitting there doing nothing.

Is it? I use it as ace-asking, and can imagine a number of other uses.

[Zelandakh]

ArtK78, on 2014-July-01, 07:46, said:

Yes, I am one of them. Why not? The 4♠ bid is just sitting there doing nothing.

Well you could use 4♠ for range ask Baon and 4NT/5♣ as minor suit Texas. But better still is for 2♠ to be a range ask and now you can use a delayed 4NT as the stronger invite if you want to, freeing up both immediate responses.

[barmar]

whereagles, on 2014-June-30, 14:42, said:

It is playable to use 2NT as 18 and 3NT as 19. Not ideal, but playable.

Yes, very simple. But if that's their agreement, why can't they explain it when asked?

I play in America, so none of the Acol stuff is relevant. These are always poor players playing Standard American.

[EricK]

NickRW, on 2014-July-01, 06:42, said:

Your opening line seems to imply you think Acol is a useless system. I'd tend to agree if imps is your game, but, IMO, it holds up well in the MP arena - or at least it does in the hands of the competent - but you could say that about any system.

I didn't intend it to imply that. I was making the points that as they were playing in England, their base system was Acol (4 card majors, weak NT), but that they had a number of very unusual agreements which no book on Acol would advocate.

I no longer have a regular partner there, so only play if somebody needs a partner. I am quite happy to play Acol with any of them, but I do try to talk them out of some of the worst conventions.

[FrancesHinden]

ArtK78, on 2014-July-01, 07:46, said:

Yes, I am one of them. Why not? The 4♠ bid is just sitting there doing nothing.

And I am quite calm.

No it isn't. I use a 4S response to show a desire to play in 4S. This is a very useful treatment and comes up reasonably frequently.

[MickyB]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-July-01, 13:55, said:

No it isn't. I use a 4S response to show a desire to play in 4S. This is a very useful treatment and comes up reasonably frequently.

Not worth the memory load IMO