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Responding to a 3C opening bid Use of artificial 3D

#1 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 09:05

After partner opens with a 3 pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3 to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3 as a transfer to 3, albeit with no other information.

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3?
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#2 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 09:25

3 has little use as natural. You can use it anyway you want.

It may be nice to use it to tell good from bad preempts, as a 3 is often off-shape (2 not available as weak).
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#3 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 10:11

View Postpaulg, on 2014-April-04, 09:05, said:

After partner opens with a 3 pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3 to ask for a 3-card major ...

This is in Steve Robinson's Washington Standard book, and you will see it in many of my systems. I had thought about restructuring to get responder to often play the hand, but the frequency didn't seem worth the bother:

3-3 asks:
-- 3: not 3s, now 3 asks:
---- 3NT: not 3s, rest with 3s
-- 3: 3s
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#4 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 12:38

View Postglen, on 2014-April-04, 10:11, said:

This is in Steve Robinson's Washington Standard book, and you will see it in many of my systems. I had thought about restructuring to get responder to often play the hand, but the frequency didn't seem worth the bother:

3-3 asks:
-- 3: not 3s, now 3 asks:
---- 3NT: not 3s, rest with 3s
-- 3: 3s


This seems kind of strange as a structure.

If Responder has just spades, he gets great information about Opener's hand if Opener does not have three hearts also. If Opener is 3-3-0-7 or 3-3-1-6, however, the spade fit might be lost.

If Responder has just hearts, he will know that there is a fit when Opener bids 3, and the contract is likelier to be right-sided, but there is not much in the way of extra pattern known.

If Responder has both majors 5-5, the right game will be found, and all is well.

Contrast this with the following:

3 = 3 spades, or neither (3 asks)

3 = 3 hearts, not three spades

3NT = both 3-card majors

In this structure, all contracts are right-sided. No major fits can be missed, which is probably more important.

The Robinson approach, again, seems to have a gaping hole when Opener has 3316 and Responder has five spades.



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#5 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 12:59

How bout 3 as asking for a stopper with 3N being a stopper and 4 as no stopper.

3N seems a likely goal and may be useful if your thinking of a slam.
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#6 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 13:40

The first structure is wrong as has been pointed out before, because it wrong-side 3NT in 2 instances (go through them and you will see what I mean). Ken's wrong-sides when responder has five spades and opener has neither. You can do better as follows:

3 asks:

3 = no 3M
3 = 3
3NT = 3

This only wrong-sides NT when responder has 5 and a desire to play 3NT opposite no fit. And when opener has no 3-card major, responder can bid 3NT or bid 3 as an artificial probe suggesting 3NT, but only if opener is suitable.
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#7 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 14:00

Er, we can get (almost) the lot. After 3:

3 = one 3 card major
3 = no 3M, unsuitable for NT from weak side
3NT = no 3M, happy to play 3NT
4 = both 3M

After 3:

3 = nat
3NT = 5

But the problem here is one of information leakage.
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#8 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2014-April-05, 00:30

View PostPhilKing, on 2014-April-04, 14:00, said:

3 = no 3M, unsuitable for NT from weak side
3NT = no 3M, happy to play 3NT

Does the hand that would bid 3NT actually exist?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#9 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2014-April-05, 02:35

View Postgnasher, on 2014-April-05, 00:30, said:

Does the hand that would bid 3NT actually exist?


Depends what you think a 3C opening bid looks like

Qx
Qx
Qxx
Q109xxx

?
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#10 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-April-05, 09:58

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2014-April-05, 02:35, said:

Depends what you think a 3C opening bid looks like

Qx
Qx
Qxx
Q109xxx

?


Perfect hand for the system. B-)
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#11 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2014-April-06, 06:26

View Postpaulg, on 2014-April-04, 09:05, said:

After partner opens with a 3 pre-empt...

Try this -

RESPONDER NEEDS A VERY GOOD REASON TO REMOVE THE PRE-EMP, AS OPENER’S HAND MAY BE COMPLETELY USELESS OUTSIDE OF THE SUIT BID, WHEREAS RESPONDER’S HAND CAN PROVIDE TRICKS IN THE OTHER 3 SUITS TO TAKE CARE OF OPENER’S LOSERS
RESPONSES AFTER 3 PRE-EMPT:

Pass (The hand belongs to the opponents)
3: 3 over 3 is own 7-card minor suit, no support for opener’s suit, not much anywhere else
3: Natural, at least a 5-card suit, may or may not have support for the suit opened, asking for a stopper in the suit bid, forcing for 1 round.

CONTINUATION AFTER A REPLY OF 3
1. 3: 1 step (cheapest bid), singleton or void in , no stopper
a) Responder places the final contract
2. 3NT: I have a stopper e.g. Ax, Kx, Qxx
a) Responder places the final contract (often 4 on a good 5-2 trump fit)
3. 4: 2 steps (excluding 3NT), doubleton in
a) Responder places the final contract
4. 4: Game in asking suit = 3-card support

3: Natural, at least a 5-card suit, may or may not have support for the suit opened, asking for a stopper in the suit bid, forcing for 1 round.

CONTINUATION AFTER A REPLY OF 3
1. 3NT: I have a stopper e.g. Ax, Kx, Qxx
a) Responder places the final contract (often 4 on a good 5-2 trump fit)
2. 4: 1 step (cheapest bid excluding 3NT), singleton or void in , no stopper
a. Responder places the final contract
3. 4: 2 steps (excluding 3NT), doubleton in
4. 4: Game in asking suit = 3-card support
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#12 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-April-06, 06:29

View Post32519, on 2014-April-06, 06:26, said:

Try this -

...........
........
......


No, thanks !
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#13 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2014-April-06, 08:24

View Postpaulg, on 2014-April-04, 09:05, said:

After partner opens with a 3 pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3 to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3 as a transfer to 3, albeit with no other information.

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3?


When I was a student,I was taught that when partner opened a pre empt,he was saying
loud and clear that he was only interested in HIS suit. The yardstick for raising depended
on how many quick tricks were held by the responder, 4 QT if non vul,3 if vul.
I was also taught that responder should never go into NT unless he(responder) held a minimum
of 3 cards in the pre empt suit.
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#14 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2014-April-06, 23:09

View Postpaulg, on 2014-April-04, 09:05, said:

After partner opens with a 3 pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3 to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3 as a transfer to 3, albeit with no other information.

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3?

I ran some numbers through BBOs deal generator. To find partner with a 7-card suit and a 3-card major is tiny. These are the numbers:
0.47% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card suit, 6-11 HCP
0.44% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 1X
0.32% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 2X
0.15% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 3X

To have 3-cards in the specific major responder has, drops off the probability even further. Referring back to my previous post, ask for 3-cards in the specific major wanted, instead of having opener tell. It helps squat having 3-cards in the major responder does not have.
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#15 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2014-April-07, 00:11

So what you're saying is that given a 3 preempt, there's a 1 in 6 chance he has a three-card heart fragment? So roughly 1 in 3 to have a 3M fragment?
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#16 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-April-07, 00:30

View Post32519, on 2014-April-06, 23:09, said:

I ran some numbers through BBOs deal generator. To find partner with a 7-card suit and a 3-card major is tiny. These are the numbers:
0.47% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card suit, 6-11 HCP
0.44% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 1X
0.32% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 2X
0.15% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 3X

To have 3-cards in the specific major responder has, drops off the probability even further. Referring back to my previous post, ask for 3-cards in the specific major wanted, instead of having opener tell. It helps squat having 3-cards in the major responder does not have.


Many 6-cd club suits get preempted...especially because very few people have a weak two in clubs available.

If you want to look at odds, why not look at how often partner will have a 3-cd holding given the fact that he has already opened 3C? For example, the odds you list are very low, but 0.15% divided by 0.47% suggests that almost half the time opener will have 3 hearts along with 7 clubs. Seems high to me but I assume that's right. So if you have 5 hearts as responder, it's worth considering that opener could have 3-cd support for you.

Many are finding it useful to concentrate on finding 5-3 major fits as well as 6-2 major fits while avoiding 5-2 major fits. If you have a 5-2 fit you will likely more often want to be in 3N and try to run either suit...more often the clubs. A lot of the ideas then use 3D to find 3-cd majors while using 3H and 3S responses to promise 6-cd suits.
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#17 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2014-April-07, 01:22

View Poststraube, on 2014-April-07, 00:30, said:

Many are finding it useful to concentrate on finding 5-3 major fits as well as 6-2 major fits while avoiding 5-2 major fits. If you have a 5-2 fit you will likely more often want to be in 3N and try to run either suit...more often the clubs. A lot of the ideas then use 3D to find 3-cd majors while using 3H and 3S responses to promise 6-cd suits.

Check out my first post in this thread. You can still find your 6-2 major fits. I firmly believe that you are better off with responder "asking" about support for a specific major, than with opener "telling" what he has. It helps you squat with opener "telling" you about 3-card support in the major responder does not have.
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#18 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-April-07, 07:06

View Post32519, on 2014-April-07, 01:22, said:

Check out my first post in this thread. You can still find your 6-2 major fits. I firmly believe that you are better off with responder "asking" about support for a specific major, than with opener "telling" what he has. It helps you squat with opener "telling" you about 3-card support in the major responder does not have.


In your structure, responder can't ask for support of a specific major without risking opener bypassing 3N when he doesn't have 3-cd support. For example...

3C-3H, 4C for doubleton without a stopper

and

3C-3S, 4C for singleton without a stopper

and

3C-3S, 4D for doubleton without a stopper

That's really fatal. So it the idea of responder only bidding 3N with a stopper in the suit that responder holds.

You also need to clean up...

3C-3H, ? because two rebids qualify for Qxx....the rebid of 3N and the raise to 4H. Probably you mean 4H.

I don't expect you'll change your mind, so agree to disagree. Good luck.
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#19 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2014-April-07, 09:35

Not yet mentioned in the thread is Andersen and Zenkel's Preempts from A to Z

They recommended 3D asking for a 3-card major. I don't have the book handy but I think their proposed rebids were
3H = 3 spades
3S = 3 hearts
3NT = both majors
4C = no major.

I don't doubt that it can be squeezed into one fewer step if you are prepared to occasionally wrongside 3NT. But simple is good, for a moderately uncommon situation.

I found it actually came up with some frequency, with the one regular partner who played it, and gained me something I could not get by any other means. When partner opened 3D and I had a nice 5-card major I actually missed it.
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#20 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2014-April-07, 10:49

View Postpaulg, on 2014-April-04, 09:05, said:

After partner opens with a 3 pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3 to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3 as a transfer to 3, albeit with no other information.

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3?

I find this thread of yours intriguing. To remove a 3-level pre-empt you obviously have a very good reason to do so. Help me to get a better understanding of what responder's hand looks like to remove the pre-empt -
1. What is the minimum number of HCP opener can expect to find responder with?
2. What sort of distribution are we talking about here with responder? In looking for a 3-card major, are you implying that responder is 5/5 in the majors?
3. Does the 3 asking bid absolutely deny any sort of fit with opener?
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