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how much penalty oriented?

Poll: how much penalty oriented? (25 member(s) have cast votes)

on this doule responder is suposed to pass

  1. 90% of the time (4 votes [16.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.00%

  2. 80% of the time (8 votes [32.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.00%

  3. 70% of the time (5 votes [20.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  4. 60% of the time (2 votes [8.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

  5. 50% of the time (3 votes [12.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.00%

  6. 40% of the time (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. 30% of the time (1 votes [4.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

  8. 20% of the time (1 votes [4.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

  9. 10% of the time (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  10. 0% of the time (1 votes [4.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

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#21 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2014-April-02, 00:35

View Postggwhiz, on 2014-April-01, 17:49, said:

I can only conclude that this debate is a waste of time without an actual hand.

In the non-penalty camp I just can't believe I'm dealt a pass very often unless my rho is a complete moron for bidding to 2 this way and I never got rich for playing him to be.

Based on his bidding, he might be a complete moron much more often than you'd think.
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#22 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2014-April-02, 14:46

View PostPhilKing, on 2014-April-01, 17:03, said:

It borders on mindless to play with someone that would not recognise this as a 2NT bid (they have at least nine spades and you have a guaranteed minor suit fit, but what is really mindless is that NO ONE HAS EVER HAD THIS HAND ON THIS AUCTION, for reasons that should be pretty obvious). Whether your partners can spot a penalty double is not relevant.


It always strikes me as funny when a totally natural call is removed from one's thinking to cater to
an extremely low degree of probability case (like wanting to x 2s for penalty). IMHO it is way more
likely one might hold something like AJT QJTxx Kx QJx and wish 2n to be competitive in the sense of
being able to make it while still giving p a chance to remove to 3c or 3d. Partner has already passed
2s so we can forget about finding them with a spade stack making the odds even better that the opps
have found an 8+ card fit. This very valuable and totally natural call can save x for hands that are
less defensive in nature.

The desire to squeeze out the maximum possible penalty from a position of weakness (in front of declarer)
leads to more disasters than almost any other in bridge. Save those low level penalty x for hands where
they are useful for competitive bidding and leave the penalty x for the players behind declarer in
these situations. Be happy with setting the opps a small amount on the rare occasion you have a real penalty
x and save your tox for those hands where you wish to compete.

One final thought x for penalty takes a rather huge risk that no one has mentioned so far. What will
partner do if they are minimum?? Do they leave it in or automatically pull? Using the bids the way I have
described them leaves p well placed to judge our next move but using x for penalty may leave p in the
dark on our next move because of the rather huge range the xer might have for making a penalty x. You decide
but I will take my large penalties when the opps are unlucky enough to have some strong spades pop up
behind them and p can x for penalty and take my small profits when I have the rare penalty x. Good luck.
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#23 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2014-April-02, 15:10

For me it makes very little sense for this dble to be anything but t/o and extra values. What does a person do with 1543 sweet 16? Responder could well have a fine hand to play diamonds, or even convert the double. When I have the hand to want to double for penalty I regret to say I will take it in 50's.
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#24 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-April-02, 16:55

View Postmcphee, on 2014-April-02, 15:10, said:

For me it makes very little sense for this dble to be anything but t/o and extra values. What does a person do with 1543 sweet 16? Responder could well have a fine hand to play diamonds, or even convert the double. When I have the hand to want to double for penalty I regret to say I will take it in 50's.


With 1543 sweet 16 he would have rebid 2, not 2 and he would not have passed 2 the previous round anyway if he thinks that is a sweet 16 hcp.
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#25 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-April-03, 05:18

You may not like the 2 bidder actions, but people do stuff like this all the time. To force it as pure penalty is making it more of a personal thing that might well be antipercentage.

Bidder may even have a direct 3 bid and decided to "walk the dog". Particularly likely if he's the sort of person who takes pleasure in annoying you :)
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#26 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2014-April-03, 17:51

On this concrete hand the balancer had AJxx and catched K109xx in dummy. -570 was not a success.
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#27 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2014-April-03, 18:53

View PostFluffy, on 2014-April-03, 17:51, said:

On this concrete hand the balancer had AJxx and catched K109xx in dummy. -570 was not a success.

Could you also give your hands? Something fishy is going on.
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#28 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-April-03, 19:32

View Postgwnn, on 2014-April-03, 18:53, said:

Could you also give your hands? Something fishy is going on.


Not fishy at all to me. I think people are underestimating the chances that they may have a big fit when both you and your pd are known to hold less than 3 spades. They are almost guaranteed to play in at worst a 4-3 fit. And people also underestimating their overall values when your side opens, other one responds and then makes a simple preference. They may easily be holding as much hcps as your side or a little less.

It is hardly a surprise to me, but that does not mean we should play this double for take out. We should be able to punish them when they do not land on their feet. And we should also don't think they are dead cows just because they get in late like this.

Only thing fishy to me is, if they had 5-4 fit how did our side double them for penalty. Was it a misunderstanding of the double or did we double them thinking each time they do this they are dead cows.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#29 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-April-03, 19:43

View PostMrAce, on 2014-April-03, 19:32, said:

Not fishy at all to me. I think people are underestimating the chances that they may have a big fit when both you and your pd are known to hold less than 3 spades.

Not on my planet. Opener can have 4 and responder could have 3.
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#30 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2014-April-03, 20:19

View PostMrAce, on 2014-April-03, 19:32, said:

Only thing fishy to me is, if they had 5-4 fit how did our side double them for penalty. Was it a misunderstanding of the double or did we double them thinking each time they do this they are dead cows.

That's what I meant. If opener had 3 spades as indeed he should have, what can responder have to pass with a singleton? With 5 clubs you should definitely pull, with 6 diamonds you shoulda bid 2d before, I guess partner could have a very bad 1354? But surely you're not going to pass the double with a double fit and a bad hand?

Opener could have 2 spades I guess, but this is just me trying to guess, I don't think he can double with 2 spades (with a very good 2542 opener rebids 2NT the round before).

When I wrote this I just realised that the simplest explanation is that they just had a misunderstanding. Opener thought he was doubling for takeout with 1543 and responder thought it was a penalty double and was happy to have Qxx as well. I now also see that you wrote the same thing in your post. Good job me reading posts I reply to.

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#31 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-April-03, 20:55

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-April-03, 19:43, said:

Not on my planet. Opener can have 4 and responder could have 3.


You are correct, i should have said "when you and your pd are known to hold less than 3 card spades, most of the time"

So one of the opponents can make a lucky guess. This lucky guess is actually an "educated guess" if your side has raised each other in hearts rather than simple preference.

My point is, just because they made a delayed overcall in balancing situation, which they did not at 1 level when they had the ability to do so, does not mean they are completely morons, or should always be punished regardless of what we have in their suit. If you agree to play this double for penalties, it should be used because of some spade holdings and not because of the weird auction.

It seems to me that Gonzalo and his pd either doubled them thinking that this auction should be punished, or they had a misunderstanding of the double.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#32 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 06:15

View Postmcphee, on 2014-April-02, 15:10, said:

For me it makes very little sense for this dble to be anything but t/o and extra values. What does a person do with 1543 sweet 16?

With 1534 you can always bid 2NT for take-out. Don't double if you really don't want partner to pass. With 2524 I would mostly chicken out.
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#33 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 06:58

View Postgwnn, on 2014-April-03, 20:19, said:

That's what I meant. If opener had 3 spades as indeed he should have, what can responder have to pass with a singleton? With 5 clubs you should definitely pull, with 6 diamonds you shoulda bid 2d before, I guess partner could have a very bad 1354? But surely you're not going to pass the double with a double fit and a bad hand?

Opener could have 2 spades I guess, but this is just me trying to guess, I don't think he can double with 2 spades (with a very good 2542 opener rebids 2NT the round before).

When I wrote this I just realised that the simplest explanation is that they just had a misunderstanding. Opener thought he was doubling for takeout with 1543 and responder thought it was a penalty double and was happy to have Qxx as well. I now also see that you wrote the same thing in your post. Good job me reading posts I reply to.

Oh well, gotta finish my episode of Elementary now.


Opener had singleotn spade, he actually was making a very bad move wih 1525, but the point was: could he have 1534?, the consensous seems to be that the answer is no.
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#34 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 07:10

View Posthelene_t, on 2014-April-04, 06:15, said:

With 1534 you can always bid 2NT for take-out. Don't double if you really don't want partner to pass. With 2524 I would mostly chicken out.


But 2NT shows a 3523 14 count. :ph34r:
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#35 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 12:37

View PostPhilKing, on 2014-April-04, 07:10, said:

But 2NT shows a 3523 14 count. :ph34r:


not just any old boring 14 count but with reasonable heart intermediates
making 2n a real possibility of making. Keep on reading you will get there:)
:ph34r:
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#36 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2014-April-04, 12:39

View Postgszes, on 2014-April-04, 12:37, said:

not just any old boring 14 count but with reasonable heart intermediates
making 2n a real possibility of making. Keep on reading you will get there:)
:ph34r:


In other words, a hand that has forgotten to open a strong no trump. :P
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#37 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2014-April-05, 11:10

View PostPhilKing, on 2014-April-04, 12:39, said:

In other words, a hand that has forgotten to open a strong no trump. :P


There is a rather large group of hands that fall into this category 14
counts are merely the top end but the main key is the heart suit that has
strong potential to get 4 tricks opposite honor x. Having 2 spade stops
is also a pretty key ingredient since there are few if any reasonable
1 spade stop hands where a 2n balance makes a lot of sense.

KQT QJTxx Kx JTx no one would confuse for a 1n opener but it is a very
reasonable 2n balance. The hands near the bottom range like this example
would really hate to defend 2s and having to pass just because you are
minimum would be a shame.
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#38 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-April-05, 11:21

2nt is never to play. If it can't be an invite it must be artificial
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