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Elinescu-Wladow banned

#21 User is offline   Oof Arted 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 01:49

View Postnige1, on 2014-March-29, 18:47, said:



It seems that the accused were tried in their absence, in what was for them a foreign country, at a time inconvenient to them and known to be impossible for their NBO. The rival team, whom they had beaten and who made the allegations against them, belong to the same organisation and country as the judges, who convicted the suspects. In spite of all this, arguably, the life-ban sentence might still be reasonable but it seems bizarre to expect the culprits to pay the costs of proceedings



Sorry Nigel this part is incorrect at least 1 Member of the judges is in FACT English
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#22 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 02:23

View Postmike777, on 2014-March-29, 22:03, said:

In a first reaction from the German side it seems likely that the German Bridge Federation and/or Elinescu and Wladow will appeal against the WBF ruling.


Interesting that the very strong response was from the German bridge federation president, who just happened to be a teammate of E&W at this tournament, and stands to lose his own gold medal depending on the actions of the WBF.
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#23 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 02:45

View PostOof Arted, on 2014-March-30, 01:49, said:

Sorry Nigel this part is incorrect at least 1 Member of the judges is in FACT English

And another appears to be from Pakistan. So Nigel was wrong about twice as many of them as he was right about.
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#24 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 02:50

View Postthe hog, on 2014-March-29, 20:11, said:

Arend, I am curious to know why you make this statement. Do you have information others on this site may not have regarding their reputation?


Trinidad put it well. I can't say I was surprised at the news either.
You can also see it in the report, that they were monitored 'extensively' in 2008 and 2009. That indicates that accusations have been made before. It also indicates that proof wasn't forthcoming at that point.

I only played 20 boards against them (in the European Champion's Trophy). We had quite a distasteful experience on one board - I was dummy and also doing the bridgemate scoring. My partner played a hand quite fast, and I mis-saw what happened in the ending and scored it as 11 tricks, which my opponent accepted. When we came to score up, my partner corrected me saying he had made 12 tricks and told me how the play had gone. This was worth 1 imp. We went to talk to them with a director, and one said "I agreed the score at the table that's the end of it"; and then they both said when asked said "I don't remember how the play went". Really? You represent your country and you can't remember how the play went on a hand you defended all of 15 minutes ago with the hand record to help you? The TD adjusted the score.
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#25 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 03:23

View Postthe hog, on 2014-March-29, 21:38, said:

I have read the same material as you and find there to be some serious problems in the way the investigation was conducted.

Care to state what those serious problems are?

View PostTrinidad, on 2014-March-30, 01:36, said:


It is certainly correct to tell the observer what to look for (otherwise it is hard to observe). You just shouldn't tell what the observation (allegedly) means, and hence when the observer should look for it.

Quite right.

Being told (or knowing) what to look for is fundamental.

There is no indication that people were told what to find or what not to look for.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#26 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 03:30

people have known something was rotten for 10 years or so. i played against them in the german cup in bonn and rearranged all my screenmate's bidding cards on the tray before i let them push the tray through - we maxed out that match.

as for the dbv, of course they've been turning a blind eye to it for years, but to be fair to them, they were in a dubious situation. banning them, even unofficially, without working out exactly what they were doing would put them in trouble legally.

more damned in my eyes are the rest of the german team who were happy to play with them. compare that with the current situation in israel where one very successful player is ostracised by a large proportion of the rest of the top players there.
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#27 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 03:38

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-March-30, 03:23, said:

Care to state what those serious problems are?


Quite right.

Being told (or knowing) what to look for is fundamental.

There is no indication that people were told what to find or what not to look for.


I thought I did. Holding the hearing in the US and offering a video conference. I am not sure how experienced you are with vc. I can tell you, and I am sure you can work out for yourself, that a vc is nowhere near as effective as being able to present your case ftf.
I also commented on some of the evidence being self serving. Finally I still think the observer should not have been told what to look for. I bet, and I am not being disrespectful to you, that if someone told me a means by which you were cheating that I would be able to find instances of it in my own mind, even though you were guilty of nothing.
Just as a matter of interest: I played against this pair in a regional tournament in Germany some years ago. I found their manner relatively unpleasant, but that was it.They were curt and said nothing as we sat down and said hello.
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#28 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 04:23

View PostCascade, on 2014-March-29, 13:21, said:

Assume this pair are guilty, I don't know, but why does it take until they get to a world championship final before they are investigated?

It didn't. It took until they got to a world championship final before they were caught. You'll see from Donna Compton's Complaint that the pair had been "extensively monitored in 2008 and 2009 to no avail".

Maybe they should have started monitoring earlier during the D'Orsi Bowl, but gossip amongst the players doesn't necessarily reach the directing staff, so it probably needed an official approach from the US NPC to get their attention.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#29 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 04:29

View Postavonw, on 2014-March-29, 20:44, said:

So what about their "victory" by 11 imps in the 2013 d'Orsi Trophy?

Will the WBF strip them of the title?
Will USA2 be named the winners?

I predict that they'll strip the offending pair of their title, but they won't change the result of the event. The rest of the German team will remain world champions.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#30 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 04:41

Few quick comments here:

1. Once the WBF has a strong case that a pair is cheating, it seems reasonable to take action as soon as is practical. I could be convinced that the actual prosecution could be delayed. However, it makes sense to treat this all expeditiously. In a similar vein, I'd rather If the WBF were to schedule a separate meeting, it seems right

2. With respect to the claims of institutional bias: I don't think that you can disqualify individuals from the United States participating in this process based on the fact that this was brought up by an American. I'd hope that individuals could get over any kind of National bias, particularly on a incident that will draw a lot of public scrutiny.

3. I don't see any alternative to informing the observer to watch and record coughing. This is key information that needs to be captured.

4. Said it before, I'll say it again. We need to transition away from pasteboard and play major events on computers with the players separated from one another.

Lots of benefits wrt Vugraph and it will prevent issues like this one.
Alderaan delenda est
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#31 User is online   cherdano 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 05:00

View Postthe hog, on 2014-March-29, 20:11, said:

Arend, I am curious to know why you make this statement. Do you have information others on this site may not have regarding their reputation?
A few things concern me. The case was held in the US . Why not in Europe? Some of the evidence presented is lame to say the least and has in one case, nothing to do with coughing. eg, the ridiculous Spade bid which went 4 off. This is an egregious beginners error to bid spades here.
Finally, as Cascade points out, it is surely incorrect to tell the observer what to look for. This is not the way evidence should be gathered.


I have never played against them.
The first time I read about them was when they fought a long appeal's process (the appeal was considered after the event, and then there was a National appeal's board to which they could appeal the appeal's decision). Their case was based on claiming "no agreement" in an auction where I had a clear agreement with my partner. I bet you would have an agreement if you had a regular partnership. Note Wladow-Elinescu have been playing together for ages, using their own homegrown system.

So it was basically documented officially (for anyone who understands the meaning of "high-level partnership") that this is a pair with highly questionable ethics. But if you had forced me to bet, I would always have bet that they are outright cheaters. Why? They play a lot of 2-way openings (e.g. Fantunes-style 2M bids), but seemed to have an impressive track record (basically bridge-gothic level) of never playing ridiculous contracts as a result (i.e., they are apparently much better bidders than Fantunes).

I am German, and I was always rooting for the German women's team, and against the German open team...
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#32 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 05:39

Traian's livestream channel used to provide live video streaming from Bali was paid for several months to keep the videos on archive, but after the payments stopped the videos were deleted (by livestream). However Traian still has some of those saved on his computer and he will upload on youtube. He'll post several of the German team's recordings here:

https://www.youtube....vebridgewebcam1

#33 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 06:15

View Postcherdano, on 2014-March-30, 05:00, said:

I have never played against them.
The first time I read about them was when they fought a long appeal's process (the appeal was considered after the event, and then there was a National appeal's board to which they could appeal the appeal's decision). Their case was based on claiming "no agreement" in an auction where I had a clear agreement with my partner. I bet you would have an agreement if you had a regular partnership. Note Wladow-Elinescu have been playing together for ages, using their own homegrown system.

So it was basically documented officially (for anyone who understands the meaning of "high-level partnership") that this is a pair with highly questionable ethics. But if you had forced me to bet, I would always have bet that they are outright cheaters. Why? They play a lot of 2-way openings (e.g. Fantunes-style 2M bids), but seemed to have an impressive track record (basically bridge-gothic level) of never playing ridiculous contracts as a result (i.e., they are apparently much better bidders than Fantunes).

I am German, and I was always rooting for the German women's team, and against the German open team...

Fair enough and thanks for the reply. I knew nothing about their "reputation". I just didn't like their table manner.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#34 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 06:41

View Postwank, on 2014-March-30, 03:30, said:

people have known something was rotten for 10 years or so. i played against them in the german cup in bonn and rearranged all my screenmate's bidding cards on the tray before i let them push the tray through - we maxed out that match.

as for the dbv, of course they've been turning a blind eye to it for years, but to be fair to them, they were in a dubious situation. banning them, even unofficially, without working out exactly what they were doing would put them in trouble legally.

more damned in my eyes are the rest of the german team who were happy to play with them. compare that with the current situation in israel where one very successful player is ostracised by a large proportion of the rest of the top players there.

I am a member of the DBV and to make it clear I am not a great fan of the DBV.
However, to my knowledge this is the first incident where a prominent pair of the DBV has been accused of cheating.
I believe cheating exists but is rare.
I also claim until I see proof to the contrary that the rest of the German team in Bali including the captain (Karen Schroeder) were totally unaware of this.
Of course anybody can decide for him/herself with whom you play in a partnership or in a team.
The pair Wladow_Elinescu in general was contentious, but more because Wladow has an extravagant temperament.

But if cheating is a problem, I am sure false allegations, nurtured by envy and jealousy, are one as well and anybody with an open eye can see how quickly rumours are taken as facts.
I much prefer to wait for solid evidence like here rather than supporting mob law and vigilantism of self-appointed judges.

Rainer Herrmann
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#35 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 07:21

View Postrhm, on 2014-March-30, 06:41, said:


However, to my knowledge this is the first incident where a prominent pair of the DBV has been accused of cheating.



they were accused of cheating many times, though perhaps not backed up with sufficient evidence for the authorities to do anything, and very possibly those complaining were at fault for doing so only amongst themselves instead of making an official submission. it's awkward to be the first person to put one's head above the parapet in such situations, so one must give kudos to the american team here.
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#36 User is online   cherdano 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 07:25

View Postrhm, on 2014-March-30, 06:41, said:

I much prefer to wait for solid evidence like here rather than supporting mob law and vigilantism of self-appointed judges.

Sure, you are free to make that choice. Personally, I would choose not to play with teammates with at best highly questionable ethics.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#37 User is offline   wendypmi 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 07:44

I am glad the WBF have imposed a justifiably stiff penalty. It is cheating at all levels which spoils the game for the innocent majority of players and it must be seen to be stamped out.
I hope the German Bridge federation will simply drop the offenders like hot bricks and that we hear no more about it.
The WBF need to update their website, to show USA2 as the winners and why!
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#38 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 08:11

View Postcherdano, on 2014-March-30, 07:25, said:

Sure, you are free to make that choice. Personally, I would choose not to play with teammates with at best highly questionable ethics.

I did not claim I prefer teammates of highly questionable ethics or that I do not care.
This was not my point, but this reaction is typical.
There may have been rumours at the international level. I was not aware of them, but frankly it also sounds a bit like hindsight.
It seems to be a common theme ("we always knew") whenever a pair has been found guilty of cheating.
I have never played with them and it is many years I last played boards against them.

Rainer Herrmann
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#39 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 08:37

View Postwendypmi, on 2014-March-30, 07:44, said:

The WBF need to update their website, to show USA2 as the winners and why!

Maybe they need to do that, but I have seen no indication it will happen; I doubt USA2 expects it to happen; and, I can't find a precedent where it did happen in Bridge. Please show me to be wrong.
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#40 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-March-30, 08:52

View Postwank, on 2014-March-30, 07:21, said:

it's awkward to be the first person to put one's head above the parapet in such situations, so one must give kudos to the american team here.

Indeed. It is not the first time an American has been the catalyst, but IMO it is the first time one has done it with class. Eddie Wold (might want to change his initials) seems to have proceeded in much better form than those in the past.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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