[plum_tree]

Why would u want 2 pre-empt at the 2 level when u can at the 3 level?
Advantages?
Disadvantages?
Seat?
Vulnerability?
Really weak suit?

[32519]

One disadvantage I can think of is -
Pre-empting in 2♥ with a weak 7-card suit allows the opponents to bid 2♠. They may find a 5-3 fit on level-2 which may not be the case if you pre-empted 3♥ from the start.

[helene_t]

Why preempt at the 3-level when you can bid 4 instead? Heck, we could open all bad hands at the 7-level, reserving openings up to the 6-level for constructive hands

The main reasons are
- sometimes the 3-level is too dangerous
- after a 2-level preempt we still have some space to negotiate which strain we are playing in, and whether we are going to game or not
- playing weak twos, partner knows you have something special when you open at the 3-level

[hrothgar]

plum_tree, on 2014-March-12, 02:27, said:

Why would u want 2 pre-empt at the 2 level when u can at the 3 level?
Advantages?
Disadvantages?
Seat?
Vulnerability?
Really weak suit?

There are advantageous to being unpredictable.

I have something of a reputation in/around Boston for fairly random preempts.
It causes some opponents to take some spectacularly stupid views and others to be off their game.

[ArtK78]

There are many reasons why one would want to preempt at the 2 level rather than at the three level. Aside from the issue of safety, which is not a major concern, the primary reason is that you have a partner. You are preempting your partner as well as the opponents. If partner can count on your preempt to be within a particular range of hands for a 2-level preempt and within a different range of hands for a 3-level preempt, partner can make a more informed decision as to his proper action over your bid.

[plum_tree]

helene_t, on 2014-March-12, 08:48, said:

The main reasons are
- sometimes the 3-level is too dangerous

This seems 2 agree with what I said in the OP, vulnerability and/or a really bad suit?

- after a 2-level preempt we still have some space to negotiate which strain we are playing in, and whether we are going to game or not

What I understand here is -
1. Your 2 level preempts are stronger than your 3 level preempts,
2. leaving room for a game inquiry as to how strong u r, and/or
3. playing in a different suit?

- playing weak twos, partner knows you have something special when you open at the 3-level

This seems 2 contradict what u said above?

[helene_t]

Quote

Your 2 level preempts are stronger than your 3 level preempts,

No of course not. 3-level preempts typically have one trump more so that is about one trick stronger.

[Vampyr]

helene_t, on 2014-March-13, 06:18, said:

No of course not. 3-level preempts typically have one trump more so that is about one trick stronger.

Well, they could be weaker, particularly in HCP.

I don't know how to quote the OP's embedded comments above, but anyway you should usually not have a "really bad suit" when you open a weak two.

[MrAce]

helene_t, on 2014-March-13, 06:18, said:

No of course not. 3-level preempts typically have one trump more so that is about one trick stronger.

Yep, this is a logic i never understood. It is all about the number of cards i hold in my preempt suit as well.


Otoh, i am totally in same page with Hroathgar about preempt style. This works much better especially if you are frequently playing in same area / field / club or even big main national events where you are facing opponents who you have played a lot against in the past (last part is for famous very good players, and if i were one of them i would not use a predictable preempt style)

[plum_tree]

hrothgar, on 2014-March-12, 08:58, said:

There are advantageous to being unpredictable.

I have something of a reputation in/around Boston for fairly random preempts.
It causes some opponents to take some spectacularly stupid views and others to be off their game.

How does partner know the difference? Surely this can get u in2 trouble as well?

[1eyedjack]

plum_tree, on 2014-March-14, 03:24, said:

How does partner know the difference? Surely this can get u in2 trouble as well?

Indeed, it can be a 2-edged sword. But there are twice as many opponents to be misled as there are partners. You do have to have a tolerant and understanding partner willing to accept the rough with the smooth. And you may have a bit more protection if partner is a passed hand.

The 2:1 ratio is a bit misleading. If your pre-empt is disciplined then partner has a more accurate estimate of the potential for both sides than do either opponent. The division of total values between the other unseen hands is less relevant to their combined potential than is the same calculation viewed from the perspective of each opponent. That advantage is eroded with wider range pre-empts. But a downside to disciplined pre-empts is reduced frequency.

[Vampyr]

plum_tree, on 2014-March-12, 02:27, said:

Why would u want 2 pre-empt at the 2 level when u can at the 3 level?

You don't have to play weak twos, of course. You can play constructive or intermediate twos, two-suited or multi-style, Acol twos, or any manner of weird and wonderful things.

[MrAce]

1eyedjack, on 2014-March-14, 21:51, said:

But a downside to disciplined pre-empts is reduced frequency.

No, not even close,

- But even if it was only that, one should not underrate the advantages of ability to open more frequently.
- You are also under estimating the hands where your side declares and they defend much more accurately than they do against unpredictable preempts
- You are also underestimating the hands where they declare and declare accurately compared to they do vs an unpredictable preempts.
- No need to mention about how hard it makes their decisions, and more frequently about bidding/not bidding.

- And the hands where your side misses a slam or game due to this unpredictable preempts are way overrated imho.
- I agree that advantages of 1/2 ratio is overrated but definitely something that has some impact, especially by the 1st seat preempts.

But for some reason missing a slam or bailing out phone numbers now and then sticks in memory. Because those hands brings more argument, someone to blame, compared to potential wins or losses which may occur due to lack of preempts, ( believe me they will occur much more than people think it does, but of course not always) These potentials can not be seen there as a hard evidence on the score sheet since it did not happen and the analysis are usually subjective unless made by competent players. Also missing a cold game and/or slam has more psychological negative effect on people imo.

plum_tree, on 2014-March-14, 03:24, said:

How does partner know the difference? Surely this can get u in2 trouble as well?

Of course pd will not know the difference unless we are doing something not legal. And yes it can get you in trouble. So ? Since neither you, nor me can come up with a perfect solution that covers all, we will just have to go with what we believe works better in the long run. Which leads us to expect losses in some hands and believe we will win more in other hands. I have not made a statistical research on this, i admit, however playing over 30 years i am just making a guess on my subjective experience, i may as well be wrong, but i doubt it.

[plum_tree]

ArtK78, on 2014-March-12, 10:58, said:

There are many reasons why one would want to preempt at the 2 level rather than at the three level. Aside from the issue of safety, which is not a major concern, the primary reason is that you have a partner. You are preempting your partner as well as the opponents. If partner can count on your preempt to be within a particular range of hands for a 2-level preempt and within a different range of hands for a 3-level preempt, partner can make a more informed decision as to his proper action over your bid.

This is the sort of answer I was looking 4. P NEVER preempts on level 3 with a 7 card suit, while I ALWAYS do. We argue about it all the time, but no-one is able to convince the other. How am I supposed 2 be able 2 differentiate when a 2 level preempt contains 6 cards or 7 cards?

[RMB1]

plum_tree, on 2014-March-16, 01:18, said:

P NEVER preempts with a 7 card suit, ...

I think you need to say more.

At the two-level, three-level, ... ?

Does that mean he needs an eight card suit to open 2♠?

Or does it mean he only has a six card suit when he opens 3X?!?

[plum_tree]

RMB1, on 2014-March-16, 01:25, said:

I think you need to say more.

At the two-level, three-level, ... ?

Post fixed

[P_Marlowe]

Preempts work best, when it forces the opponents to choose between various
options.
If you preempt to high, you quite often eliminate certain choices, and if
they are only left with one, they dont have to guess any longer.
On the other hand, if you preempt too low, they get room to explore certain
things.

You have to guess the high, but if they have to guess, you have a 75% chance,
that it will be ok for you (you guessed right or you guessed wrong, and they
guessed wrong). Keep in mind, ok for you, does not mean, that it has to be bad
for them.

Seat? - This is actually more important for your partner, facing a unpassed
partner, somtimes your partner has the strong hand.
If you force him to guess, sometimes he may guess wrong.
But it is independ of the high of the preempt, the question is more, what you
show, how variable it is.
If you force partner to guess, you chances are 25%, that it will be ok for you.

Vulnerability? - This determines your cost / their cost.

Really weak suit? - More important is, how much outside can you have.
This is also more relevant for your partner to decide, how much does he need to have
#1 so that he can raise the preempt,
#2 to assume, the suit is running,
#3 to assume, that his suit plays better, than your suit,

We use the 4/3/2 rule, -4 green vs. red, -3 equal vul., -2 red vs. green,
in 2nd seat, we modify this to 3/2/1.
To determine the minus tricks we use LTC, but in 1st and 2nd we have a closer
look at neg. adjustment factors than at 3rd pos.

In other words, we offer them slightly more then their game is worth under the
assumption that partner has nothing, but the suits dont break too badly.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

plum_tree, on 2014-March-16, 01:18, said:

How am I supposed 2 be able 2 differentiate when a 2 level preempt contains 6 cards or 7 cards?

Prempting this way at the 2 level is really gettting the worst of both worlds. You are being conservative and wide-ranging at the same time. My suggestion would be for both of you to read the preempts section of Robson/Segal "Partnership Bidding at Bridge" and readjust your sights a little bit. You do not have to copy the style they suggest but it should at least show that 6-7 card suits at the 2 level not vulnerable is not good bridge. Perhaps you can compromise to a compromise based on partner's style vulnerable; your style not vulnerable; and R/S style in third seat - or whatever. Such a strategy might suggest a further modification down the line once you have made the relevant adjustments.