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1C (1S)

#1 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-March-08, 20:34

Looking at how to cope with spade overcalls of a strong club. Suggestions? One idea...

P-other or spades

dbl-5-7, bal with 3-4 spades

1N-5-7 takeout of spades

2C-GF, 2+ clubs
.....2D-waiting
..........2H-4 hearts

2D-5-7, 5+ hearts

2H-8+, 5+ hearts

2S-GF, 5+ diamonds

etc-transfers with 5-7
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#2 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-March-09, 02:25

I think this keeps the opponents honest.

1C (1S) dbl (2S) ?

Dbl is penalty
2N is takeout

1C (1S) 1N (2S) ?

Dbl is penalty
2N is takeout

I think it will be more dangerous to overcall 4-cd spade suits,

The other thing is that most of the continuations are pretty straightforward. After 1C (1S) both 1N and dbl limit responder's hand so further bidding by him is competitive or invitational. Opener's rebids are usually self-explanatory.

The obvious difficulty is skewering opener's stoppers for a NT contract, but I've been looking at hands and it just seldom makes a difference. Much more annoying is that sometimes responder doubles and robs opener of the double when he has takeout shape.

I looked at inverting the meaning of dbl and 1N firstly out of frequency considerations because the balanced hands with 3-4 spades are just a lot more common than hands that are 0-2 spades with 3-cd support for other suits but not five hearts. Anyway, I think that using double as takeout OR balanced would be making a mistake.
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#3 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2014-March-09, 12:26

How about using transfers starting with 2 and X as takeout?

In other words:

X: Takeout
1N: Balanced, GF
2: Transfer to
2: Transfer to
2: Transfer to -> ostensibly exposing psyche or natural if 1 is artificial
2: Transfer with , at least invite+ or GF
2N: Transfer with , < invite, etc.

This method gives up the possibility of penalizing 1, but has the advantage of not having to distinguish between various meanings of 1 (including psyches). If 1 is artificial, the X becomes more nebulous, but opener knows that responder has a semi-balanced hand not fit for any other bid.

Also, this is a meta-scheme for dealing all interference through 2.
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#4 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2014-March-09, 15:01

If you played a strong club positive response system with 1 negative and 1 positive with spades, you can use pass as negative or trap (either the 1 uncontested responses), and play positive with systems on for the rest. Opener would double with takeout shape, which would also cater to the GF spades hands (at least if spades was bid naturally).
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#5 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-March-09, 15:37

View Postrbforster, on 2014-March-09, 15:01, said:

If you played a strong club positive response system with 1 negative and 1 positive with spades, you can use pass as negative or trap (either the 1 uncontested responses), and play positive with systems on for the rest. Opener would double with takeout shape, which would also cater to the GF spades hands (at least if spades was bid naturally).



Not sure I understand. In effect responder passes with negatives or trapping and a reopening double is takeout oriented. Do you mean for us to use dbl as systems on and 1N+ as systems on? We're using Imprecision responses and 1S sabotages relays.
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#6 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2014-March-09, 21:44

View Poststraube, on 2014-March-09, 15:37, said:

Not sure I understand. In effect responder passes with negatives or trapping and a reopening double is takeout oriented. Do you mean for us to use dbl as systems on and 1N+ as systems on? We're using Imprecision responses and 1S sabotages relays.

Say you played a simple TOSR or other transfer positive style precision. Pass over 1 is now both the original 1 uncontested responses, which works ok as negative or GF spades since you can have a takeout double by opener pass or bid strongly with the GF and bid naturally with a limited hand. The rest of your responses are systems on, with X taking the place of your original 1 positive (clubs or balanced or whatever), and higher responses are GF and unchanged.

My point is not that this is ideal, since often contested auctions suggest a focus on handling part score contests and less to catering to GF relays, but when I played a system with transfer positives it was nice not to have to reinvent everything to handle auctions until they bid 1N+. this won't work well with Imprecision "systems on" since you have a lot of strong GFs in 1 that got shut out.
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#7 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-March-09, 22:12

I see. Thanks for explaining.

Here's a tally of 100 hands with this....

Pass..37
dbl.....12
1N.....13
2C.....14
2D......7
2H......6
2S......5
2N......4
3C......1
3D......1
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#8 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2014-March-09, 23:05

Keep in mind that these hand frequency numbers are a poor way to analyze competitive auctions. First, you want an equal split (rather than a geometric one) if the opponents continue bidding. Second, opener will often be in the situation of making a final decision (i.e. defend or bid on, or bid past game or not) at next turn and you want responder's call to maximize the ability to make this decision. It's not like a relay auction where you have a fixed amount of space to get a full description.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#9 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 01:21

That's good to remember. Competitive auctions should have flatter frequencies than Fibonacci.

ok. So I tallied just straight transfers with 1N being GF balanced, 2H being GF with 5 spades and dbl being takeoutish with fewer than four spades. First, these were a whole new hundred hands so I expect differences. Second, the starting conditions for both were 17+ dealer and LHO having exactly 5 spades, 4 or fewer hearts, and 7+ hcps.

Pass....38
dbl......13
1N........6
2C.......11
2D.......18
2H........0
2S.........8
2N........3
3C........0
3D........3

So pretty similar. It shouldn't have so many more heart hands than diamond hands but it's a very small sample.
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#10 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 12:36

View Poststraube, on 2014-March-10, 01:21, said:


ok. So I tallied just straight transfers with 1N being GF balanced, 2H being GF with 5 spades and dbl being takeoutish with fewer than four spades. First, these were a whole new hundred hands so I expect differences. Second, the starting conditions for both were 17+ dealer and LHO having exactly 5 spades, 4 or fewer hearts, and 7+ hcps.
So pretty similar. It shouldn't have so many more heart hands than diamond hands but it's a very small sample.


The other thing to consider might be a Pyscho-Suction type 1 interference, i.e., RHO has 5+ unless they run to something else in subsequent bidding.

NV. vs. V., it isn't a stretch to throw out 1 on say four good and penalizing them in 1 might not be sufficient.

Other factors to consider might be the semantic differences between 2 showing 5+ vs. 2 showing 2+ GF, 1N for takeout occasionally wrong siding NT, etc. Also, the 1N natural GF doesn't necessarily have to show a stopper since one can always check back for it later if desired.
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#11 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 13:36

View Postakhare, on 2014-March-10, 12:36, said:

The other thing to consider might be a Pyscho-Suction type 1 interference, i.e., RHO has 5+ unless they run to something else in subsequent bidding.

NV. vs. V., it isn't a stretch to throw out 1 on say four good and penalizing them in 1 might not be sufficient.

Other factors to consider might be the semantic differences between 2 showing 5+ vs. 2 showing 2+ GF, 1N for takeout occasionally wrong siding NT, etc. Also, the 1N natural GF doesn't necessarily have to show a stopper since one can always check back for it later if desired.


Yeah. Psycho-Suction is difficult. I've thought about it but haven't arrived at any opinion.

I came up with this structure to cope with natural spade overcalls. It's obviously pretty attractive to overcall 1S because it hurts relays or makes them impractical.

My primary aim wasn't trying to penalize the opponents at the 1-level. I started off by thinking that it would be nice if 1N could be natural and 5-7 because hands that would qualify for this pattern are pretty frequent, but it's often the case the opener has the stopper and not responder. Double as balanced with 3-4 spades is meant to rightside NT, let opener judge what to do after a spade raise, and let opener compete with a 5-cd suit more so than it is to penalize 1S. Certainly opener can look to the vulnerability before passing.

Really, the 1N response (whatever it's meaning) is unattractive in the sense that you want the spade bidder to have to lead away from his own suit. So whenever responder bids 1N it's probably not a good thing for NT contracts. 1N as GF balanced I think ought to guarantee a stopper, but the lead is still starting from the wrong direction.

So using 1N as takeout will have its own share of losses, but the idea is that we may not have game and we may be better off in a suit contract.
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#12 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 17:50

View Poststraube, on 2014-March-10, 13:36, said:

My primary aim wasn't trying to penalize the opponents at the 1-level.


View Poststraube, on 2014-March-10, 13:36, said:

Really, the 1N response (whatever it's meaning) is unattractive in the sense that you want the spade bidder to have to lead away from his own suit. So whenever responder bids 1N it's probably not a good thing for NT contracts.


One possibility that preserves your original design goals is to tweak the transfer structure as follows:

X: 3-4
1N: Transfer to
2: Takeout with 3+
2: Transfer to
2: Transfer to -> ostensibly exposing psyche
2: Invite+ with OR balanced GF
2N: Transfer with , < invite, etc.

This gives an extra 2 step over 1N and gives some flexibility on declaring NT. It does give up the ability to play in 1N when responder has a takeout shape, but assuming that they really have , it hurts only when opener has length and we can always play in 2N.
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#13 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-March-10, 18:46

View Postakhare, on 2014-March-10, 17:50, said:

One possibility that preserves your original design goals is to tweak the transfer structure as follows:

X: 3-4
1N: Transfer to
2: Takeout with 3+
2: Transfer to
2: Transfer to -> ostensibly exposing psyche
2: Invite+ with OR balanced GF
2N: Transfer with , < invite, etc.

This gives an extra 2 step over 1N and gives some flexibility on declaring NT. It does give up the ability to play in 1N when responder has a takeout shape, but assuming that they really have , it hurts only when opener has length and we can always play in 2N.


1) I think you were concerned about 2C as balanced or clubs but putting these into 2S is a lot more difficult. What do I as opener rebid with xxx AKxx AQx AKx? And how do we find 6-2 heart fits? A lot to figure out. Btw after 1C (1S) 2C I'm thinking just for ease of memory...
...........2D-natural, suit
...........2H-natural, suit
...........2S-stuck
...........2N-stopper
...........3C-suit

2) 1N as diamonds is fine but removes the option of playing 1N and substitutes one problem for another (the problem being that the wrong hand is declaring NT contracts)

3) The 2H bid exposing a psyche will very seldom come up. What's wrong with 1C (1S) P (2S) P P dbl? But mostly it's a frequency thing. We want something there that's likely to come up and be useful. Out of 100 hands 2H as GF spades came up zero times. For certain if they are psyching a spade it will come up more, but if their partner is not raising spades appropriately, I'll be calling the director.

4) 2C as takeout is fine if 1N or dbl is unavailable but like you say, we can't get out then in 1N. That said, having a pure takeout bid is pretty nice. Remember the auction we had once when Tolliver psyched a spade and it went 2C by you (takeout) 3S advance and dbl by me? Pure penalty.
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#14 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-March-12, 10:58

Something like:

P = 4 spades
X = no 4M, <GF
1NT = 4 hearts, negative
2 = diamonds or bal, GF
2 = 4-5 hearts, INV
2 = 6 hearts, INV
2 = clubs, GF
2NT = 4 hearts, longer minor, GF
3 = 5 hearts + diamonds, GF
3 = 6 hearts, GF
3+ = 5 hearts + clubs, GF
?
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#15 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-March-12, 11:51

View PostZelandakh, on 2014-March-12, 10:58, said:

Something like:

P = 4 spades
X = no 4M, <GF
1NT = 4 hearts, negative
2 = diamonds or bal, GF
2 = 4-5 hearts, INV
2 = 6 hearts, INV
2 = clubs, GF
2NT = 4 hearts, longer minor, GF
3 = 5 hearts + diamonds, GF
3 = 6 hearts, GF
3+ = 5 hearts + clubs, GF
?


I suppose if you had a hand with both hearts and spades you would show the hearts and not pass.

ok, I'm going to criticize this but I appreciate you contributing here. Feel free to explain it more or criticize what I came up with.

I guess I think that pass needs to handle more hands than 0-7 with four+ spades but not four hearts. Let's say the bidding goes 1C (1S) P P ?

If pass can be any negative or if it can be an awkward semipositive or a trapping hand, then opener has a lot of freedom.

dbl-takeout or perhaps a very big hand
1N-balanced, responder may stayman or transfer
2L-natural, nf

If it goes 1C (1S) P P ? and responder has 0-7 with four spades but not four hearts then...

dbl-penalty? except we don't know if responder has any values. Opener is likely to have a takeout hand, but if dbl is takeout what does he do with AKxx A KQxxx xxx ?
..........Bid 2S? Pass?
1N-takeout? but we know responder doesn't have hearts. If natural why are we saving overcaller when we can let him play a 7-cd fit?

Looking at 1C (1S) dbl as 0-7 seems wide. If opener rebids 1N then are 2C and 2D to play? There is no use for Stayman or transfers here. Presumably responder has to bid again with 5-7 over whatever choice opener makes but the first two bids are attractively placed for either sign offs or invitations of some kind...but they can't be both.

1C (1S) 1N as 4 hearts 0-4 will pick up 4-4 fits but leaves opener awkwardly placed when he has Axx Axx KQxx Axx and he doesn't know if there's a 5-3 fit or not. Had opener been able to bid 1N himself, responder would just transfer with a 5-cd suit...which might be best if opener has even Axx Ax KQxx Axxx.
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#16 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-March-13, 07:08

With both majors I am expecting to start with a pass because there is more space that way - it is not like we are afraid of them suddenly jamming the auction if 1 was natural, and if it was not then showing the spade suit is important. Double from Opener is expected to be made on most hands with 3 or more spades, so a penalty suggestion. Even if Responder is weak it is unlikely that they are going to want to play doubled in a minority fit with the points relatively evenly distributed.

After an initial double, as you say there is no need for Stayman or transfers so 2m can be to play and 2M invitational with the corresponding minor.

I agree that there is still some ambiguity here on heart length - you cannot have everything and at least we are low enough to sort it out if Opener has extras.
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#17 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2014-March-13, 07:21

ok. It makes sense to slow the auction down when responder has their suit. Thanks a lot for the idea.
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