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How do you reach the laydown grand? We stopped in 6

#1 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 03:53

Basic system is 2/1:

What now? South has 3 losers to get rid of. How must the bidding continue now to find the grand? North's bidding has shown 5 clubs and 4 diamonds. That leaves 4-cards in the majors, 2 are taken care of by South's two aces. What about the other two?
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#2 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 04:32

You might fairly safely bet on North not also having a singleton heart, given opps haven't mentioned them.

Is there a follow-up you can use to ask for kings/etc? e.g. 5H asks, 5S shows a spade control, then South just bids it.

Some people will no doubt suggest cue rather than asking for keycards; they're probably right, as long as they've got good methods to determine there are no keycards missing. (How about: following a sequence of cuebids 5NT shows an even number of keycards?)

ahydra
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#3 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 04:54

I wd have cued 4S over 4D. Don't know how common it is to show a singleton before an Ace, but I usually try to cue the lowest possible first, be it 1st or 2nd round control.

#4 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 05:29

View Postdiana_eva, on 2014-March-06, 04:54, said:

I wd have cued 4S over 4D.
Presumably that would've shown the wrong number of keycards, as 4 was 6 keycard BW.
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#5 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 05:48

Try:
1-3Splinter Raise
4Minorwood - 5 2 with
7
Be the partner you want to play with.
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#6 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 05:49

View PostAntrax, on 2014-March-06, 05:29, said:

Presumably that would've shown the wrong number of keycards, as 4 was 6 keycard BW.


Ah, I missed that lol

#7 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 06:04

1-2
4-4

You can bid 4 to leave control to partner who can see his diamond holding, our hand is gonna be fully explained once we show 2 keycards and queen of trump. Going straight to 4NT and assumig Q is either in partner's hands of falling is also a good alternative.
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 06:13

Well 5(cue)-5(cue)-7m would seem reasonably easy, the only danger is Kxx, x, Axxx, AQxxx but that looks like a 3 splinter for many people over 1, or if not a 4 splinter over 3, also opps might well have bid.

We'd never bid 2 first up, either 3(fit, the suit is marginally sub par for us, but with the 5th diamond we'd probably do it anyway) or 2 inverted.

This would be trivial after the fit bid, as it confirms all the keycards as soon as 3 is bid due to the requirements on the suits.
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#9 User is offline   Lord Molyb 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 06:28

Isn't south a perfect 2 opener with your system? :P

http://www.bridgebas...e-two-diamonds/

1 - 2
3 - 3
4 - 5
5 - 6
7

1 = Precision
2 = Natural, positive
3 = Trump-asking bid
3 = 5 to one top honor
4 = asks
5 = AQ or AK of clubs
5 = asks
6 = 2nd round control of spades
7 = Would have to be very unlucky to not have 13 tricks.
Become yourself.
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 06:39

View PostSteveMoe, on 2014-March-06, 05:48, said:

Try:
1-3Splinter Raise
4Minorwood - 5 2 with
7


Great auction, except:

Why is N showing Q when partner presumably could have Kxx(x)
Why is S bidding the grand without further investigation when partner could have Q, KJx, Axxxxx, Axx (he should have 6 to show the Q)
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#11 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 10:50

View Postahydra, on 2014-March-06, 04:32, said:

Is there a follow-up you can use to ask for kings/etc? e.g. 5H asks, 5S shows a spade control, then South just bids it.
ahydra

South does not know that North is 5/5 in the minors. How does South know if 5 shows a singleton or a guarded king? A guarded king still only gets me to 12. I want 13.

From South's point of view there are now 12 guaranteed tricks, 9 in the minor suits, the AK (if North is showing a guarded king), and the A. Give me a legitimate auction to bid the grand without blasting.
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#12 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 11:02

View PostSteveMoe, on 2014-March-06, 05:48, said:

Try:
1-3Splinter Raise
4Minorwood - 5 2 with
7

We are playing off Paul Thurston's "The Pocket Guide to 2/1." According to this -
RESPONSES TO A 1 OPENING:
3/3/4 = Splinter raises of diamonds with shortness in bid suit, 5+ and 12+ HCP.

The North hand only has 10 HCP, falling short by 2 HCP for the splinter raise. The other issue here is, by bidding this way a cross-ruff will probably be needed without knowing enough about the North hand. Shorten North's suit and add them to his suit, if the opponents lead trumps, they pull two which may prove to be vital to make a grand via a cross-ruff.
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 11:10

View Post32519, on 2014-March-06, 11:02, said:

We are playing off Paul Thurston's "The Pocket Guide to 2/1." According to this -
RESPONSES TO A 1 OPENING:
3/3/4 = Splinter raises of diamonds with shortness in bid suit, 5+ and 12+ HCP.

The North hand only has 10 HCP, falling short by 2 HCP for the splinter raise. The other issue here is, by bidding this way a cross-ruff will probably be needed without knowing enough about the North hand. Shorten North's suit and add them to his suit, if the opponents lead trumps, they pull two which may prove to be vital to make a grand via a cross-ruff.


You may have discounted the Q but it's there and the N hand is a 12 count.

Your second point is why the fit jump 3 if available is better than the splinter.
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#14 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 11:14

View PostFluffy, on 2014-March-06, 06:04, said:

1-2
4-4

You can bid 4 to leave control to partner who can see his diamond holding, our hand is gonna be fully explained once we show 2 keycards and queen of trump. Going straight to 4NT and assumig Q is either in partner's hands of falling is also a good alternative.

Not sure if this will get me to the grand legitimately?
The Pocket Guide says this about the 2 response -
RESPONSES TO A 1 OPENING
2 = 100% game forcing, 4+, 12+ HCP. May have 4-card major if longer .

How must South know if 4 is a singleton or a 4-card suit? On the South bidding, the hand can just as well be 4/1/4/4? If that is what South actually held, how does South differentiate between a minor suit game/slam in or a major suit game/slam in ?
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#15 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 11:25

View PostCyberyeti, on 2014-March-06, 06:13, said:

Well:
1. 5(cue)-5(cue)-7m would seem reasonably easy, the only danger is Kxx, x, Axxx, AQxxx
2. but that looks like a 3 splinter for many people over 1, or if not a 4 splinter over 3, also opps might well have bid.

Paraphrasing is mine:
1. This is precisely my dilemma, how to bid the grand legitimately? See the reply to Ahydra. The 5 cue gets me to 12 legitimately. I want 13 without blasting. What would 5NT be over 5?
2. See the reply to SteveMoe.

View PostCyberyeti, on 2014-March-06, 06:13, said:

We'd never bid 2 first up, either 3(fit, the suit is marginally sub par for us, but with the 5th diamond we'd probably do it anyway) or 2 inverted.

This isn't 2/1. The OP says basic system is 2/1.

View PostCyberyeti, on 2014-March-06, 06:13, said:

This would be trivial after the fit bid, as it confirms all the keycards as soon as 3 is bid due to the requirements on the suits.

This doesn't help. I want to bid the grand legitimately without guessing.
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#16 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 11:28

View PostLord Molyb, on 2014-March-06, 06:28, said:

1 - 2
3 - 3
4 - 5
5 - 6
7

1 = Precision
2 = Natural, positive
3 = Trump-asking bid
3 = 5 to one top honor
4 = asks
5 = AQ or AK of clubs
5 = asks
6 = 2nd round control of spades
7 = Would have to be very unlucky to not have 13 tricks.

This doesn't help. The OP says the basic system is 2/1 (not Precision).
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#17 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-March-06, 11:38

You seem not only to want people to bid it using 2/1, but the awful version of it you use as exemplified by the other thread you posted, fit jumps and 2/1 are not mutually exclusive.

The splinter appears to be EXACTLY as your system card advertised, 2 aces 2 queens = 12 points, so 12+, stiff spade is perfect, but you're not happy with that.
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#18 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-March-07, 08:10

I am surprised this is not a 2 opening for you! but perhaps that is with a different partner. A possible auction:-

1 = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1 = GF with no 4 card major
1NT = relay, usually 18+
... - 2 = 5+ clubs, 5+ diamonds
2NT = relay
... - 3 = 0-1 spades
3 = relay
... - 4 = 1255, extras, 4 controls
4 = relay
... - 5 = controls in both minors but not hearts
5NT = relay
... - 6 = Q, no Q
7

The smallest change within your auction I can see that would lead to the grand is making a 5 SSA after 5. When North shows a singleton over that the situation is clear. As others have pointed out, other possible solutions also exist where changes are made earlier in the auction.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#19 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2014-March-07, 09:32

You had a good tool with the 6Ace RKC... ( 4D! )

Delay it 1 round and cuebid prior to it:
3D - 3H
3S - 4D! , etc....
Don Stenmark
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( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#20 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2014-March-07, 10:38

Why would the opening hand blast key card when it seems best to cue bid H and hope partner is able to cue bid S. When that happens you can use your t6 card key ask and reach it easy, even without 6 card ask you may well bid it.
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