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Bidding Cold Slams

#21 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-February-27, 10:49

View Postmasse24, on 2014-February-27, 10:41, said:

2 - 2
2N - 3
3 - 3
3N - 6NT

What would 4 and 4 be for you over 3NT? In many Puppet schemes you can use one or both of these (and 4/4 for hands with diamonds) to investigate a minor fit before committing to 6NT.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#22 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2014-February-27, 11:41

View Postthe hog, on 2014-February-27, 02:19, said:

Easy playing a relay system and very difficult playing natural. I would get to 6 of course, but probably not 7.

Yes, I think seven requires a relay system.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#23 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-February-27, 14:37

Gerben's version of Fantunes 1D with modified keycard approach:

1* 1
1N** 2***
2 3
3 4
4**** 4
4N***** 5 ******
5 5
6******* 7N

* F1, unbalanced (5+ unless 4441 or 1444)
** Pretty much any 19+
*** Pretty much any GF
**** normal cue, but also showing 1 or 3 KCs
***** partner could conceivably have 1
****** Shows QT
******* Denies a 6th , otherwise normal cue
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#24 User is offline   Trump Echo 

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Posted 2014-February-27, 18:22

Here is how my partner and I would bid this:

South opens 2 , intending to bid the Diamonds.

North responds 3 NT.

South considers slam in NT and sees 6 NT easily. But he also sees a possible grand slam in . His hand has more value with a fit in . So he proceeds with his plan and shows his . He bids 4 .

North has a fit in . He can see the slam in , but he can also see the possibility of a grand slam in . He considers Blackwood, but he has a worthless doubleton, so he raises the , knowing partner will not pass. He bids 5 .

South sees the possibility of a grand slam in . Blasting to 7 would be easy but reckless. There is no rush. He bids 5 , showing that Ace.

North's worries with his worthless doubleton are resolved. He can see the grand slam possibilities, but he has no Kings at all. So he bides his time with a bid of 5 , showing that Ace.

South sees 3 Aces. Does North have the Ace? He cannot be sure. He knows it's clear to both partners that they are looking at 7 , so he bids 6 , indirectly asking about the only suit that hasn't been discussed - the .

North has the Ace. He bids 7 .

South sees solidity everywhere. He can see four Aces and four Kings. It's likely the will run for five tricks. He bids 7 NT.

The key is the super-positive first response by North which locked up the minor slam and allowed room to investigate 7.
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#25 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2014-February-27, 22:41

3NT looks like it might take up a lot of bidding room after a 2 opening. How do you continue if opener has an unbalanced hand playable in two strains?
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#26 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2014-February-28, 06:43

Some good and creative attempts. Though I think the 1 openers are being rather disingenuous. I thought this was quite a tough one - easy to see why 2NT openers and rebids are called slam-killers. Stay tuned for part two.

All that is clear to me is that the South hand is worth a lot more than its 22HCP. KnR values it at 24.6! I think Helene's auction is the most likely natural one, though as she says it's easy to be biased seeing all 26 cards.

Question: After 2-2-2NT-5NT, what is 6? Is it offering an alternative small slam or inviting grand with a 5 card suit? If the latter it seems pretty perfect.
'In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.' - Douglas Adams
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#27 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-February-28, 07:41

For a natural auction, the obvious way forward to me is not to punt 5NT but rather to use Baron. That finds the diamond fit comfortably, albeit without enough space for any science: ... - 2NT - 4 (Baron); 5 (max+4s) - 5; 6 (5s). After this 6 should be a grand try (since Responder already denied 4 hearts) but that is the extent of the options beyond just guessing 6 or 7.

I already hinted at an alternative/gadget for a Puppet start, although this does not really help very much: ... - 2NT - 3; 3 - 3; 3NT - 4 = slam interest with exactly 4 clubs. Opener would continue 4 showing diamonds but now a natural 5NT just brings us back to the blasting route. There is a subtle difference here though in that we could differentiate between the 2 different hand types broze mentions by using 6 for one (cos) and 6 for the other (invite). Similarly with 3 card club support for 6/6.

Still no real science but at least there is a little scope for finer tuning here and on other hands either of these routes would have a significant advantage over the direct 5NT.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#28 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-February-28, 08:38

View Postbroze, on 2014-February-28, 06:43, said:


All that is clear to me is that the South hand is worth a lot more than its 22HCP. KnR values it at 24.6! I think Helene's auction is the most likely natural one, though as she says it's easy to be biased seeing all 26 cards.

Yeh, my mental KNR based on gut feeling evaluated South above the 22-24, but having seen the companion hand, it could have been gut resulting. I wouldn't have chosen 2C and then 3NT at the table, but it is certainly closer than it is to opening 1D.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#29 User is offline   MinorKid 

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Posted 2014-February-28, 08:44

2 2N* Positive (No 5 carder, For a minor, Bid Tempo to 5 of a Minor)
3 3 (4 Spades A+ or KQ+)
3N 4 (3+ cue-request. Since it is below 5 it is showing extra values)
4* 4N. (RKCB (D))
5 (0/3) 5 (?Q All KC Present)
5* (Q+K) 6* (else?)
7 (K + K) 7NT

On the POV of South He can count on 4s+2h+5d+2c tricks for a total of 13. If he has not the J he may stop at 6NT or 7.

Like "Trump Echo" have said, the trick is to show super positive opposite a strong 2-club opening, in which my 4 to 3NT did it.
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#30 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-February-28, 13:55

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-February-27, 09:49, said:

Whereagles/Cyber: Have you guys published your Forcing Diamond system?


I designed a strong diamond system, yes. Wanna a copy?
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#31 User is offline   granguru 

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Posted 2014-February-28, 23:12

if std SAYC used:

2 2NT(8+, positive)
3 4 (RKCB()- 4 level minor suit agreement
4 4 (asks Q+Ks)
5N* 6 *Q, all Ks - CAB in
6**7/NT **3rd round control

after 4, asking it could also go:
5 (Ks, Q ask) 5
5 (K) 5
5NT (K) 6 (CAB in )
6 (3rd round) 7NT

after 2 relay:
2 2 (relay)
3 3 (suit)
3N 4 (suit)
4 4N (RKCB, agreed)
5 5 (Q&Ks?)
5 5 (more Ks?)
5N 6 (more Ks?)
6 7NT yes, all

Instead of 5, opener can bid 6NT=Q, all kings. Then responder can easily bid 7NT.
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#32 User is offline   MinorKid 

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Posted 2014-March-01, 08:32

View PostAntrax, on 2014-February-27, 22:41, said:

3NT looks like it might take up a lot of bidding room after a 2 opening. How do you continue if opener has an unbalanced hand playable in two strains?


Therefore one may have to figure out a way to show super positive hands on the 2nd round. (E.g. simple raise is strong positive and game raise is minimum positive.)
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#33 User is offline   MinorKid 

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Posted 2014-March-01, 08:49

View Postbroze, on 2014-February-28, 06:43, said:

Some good and creative attempts. Though I think the 1 openers are being rather disingenuous. I thought this was quite a tough one - easy to see why 2NT openers and rebids are called slam-killers. Stay tuned for part two.

All that is clear to me is that the South hand is worth a lot more than its 22HCP. KnR values it at 24.6! I think Helene's auction is the most likely natural one, though as she says it's easy to be biased seeing all 26 cards.

Question: After 2-2-2NT-5NT, what is 6? Is it offering an alternative small slam or inviting grand with a 5 card suit? If the latter it seems pretty perfect.


IMO 5NT is forcing to at least 6NT. (Grand Slam Invitation.) 6 is inviting a grand based on fitting of the diamond suit (Else bid 6NT). However it is based on only a good 4-card suit as 4-4 fits can often produce an extra trick. This is especially so when 2NT rebid after 2 had denied good 5 carder.
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#34 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-March-01, 08:59

I would not be able to reach grand on this hand.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
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#35 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-March-02, 15:39

View Postgranguru, on 2014-February-28, 23:12, said:

if std SAYC used:
2 2NT(8+, positive)
3 4 (RKCB()- 4 level minor suit agreement

How long has this been part of SAYC?


View Postgranguru, on 2014-February-28, 23:12, said:

after 2 relay:
2 2 (relay)
3 3 (suit)
3N 4 (suit)
4 4N (RKCB, agreed)

What would Responder have bid here without any sort of fit?
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#36 User is offline   HighLow21 

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Posted 2014-March-02, 16:23

I can see going 7 directly over 5nt. Partner is clearly showing a monster with no fears about the diamond suit. 7 should be on a finesse or squeeze at the absolute worst and might be laydown.

6 is good for the frail-hearted.

I would only bid 7 myself if I were playing in a tournament with very strong opposition. I might 6NT actually, in a matchpoint tourney with moderate competition.
There is a big difference between a good decision and a good result. Let's keep our posts about good decisions rather than "gotcha" results!
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#37 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-March-02, 16:27

View PostMinorKid, on 2014-March-01, 08:32, said:

Therefore one may have to figure out a way to show super positive hands on the 2nd round. (E.g. simple raise is strong positive and game raise is minimum positive.)

Responder holding a super positive hand should still stay out of the way of a 2C opening bidder's plan until that hand has been limited. If Opener rebids 2N, Responder is in charge.. the only one of the two hands which is unlimited.

If opener rebids 3 of a suit (She should not do so with the given hand), she has a plan where she is taking over and asking the questions. Answer them. If Opener has asked everything she wants to ask and subsides, Responder might continue on from there.

Sometimes trusting the 2C opener to know what she is doing, and staying out of her way until she finishes doing it can be fun/profitable; OR:

2C-2D (just a waiting noise, staying out of the way)
3S-? (3S set trump and wants me to start cueing cheapest bullet or NT with a King, after which she will making asking bids.)

X AXXXX AXX AXXXX was my holding. I could let her torture the two of us for a few more rounds, but her sequence would not start this way without ten tricks in her hand. Thus, 7NT was automatic. AKQJTXXX XX V KQX was a bit less than a sure ten tricks, but enough for the claim at trick one.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#38 User is offline   MinorKid 

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Posted 2014-March-04, 07:00

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-March-02, 16:27, said:

Responder holding a super positive hand should still stay out of the way of a 2C opening bidder's plan until that hand has been limited. If Opener rebids 2N, Responder is in charge.. the only one of the two hands which is unlimited.

If opener rebids 3 of a suit (She should not do so with the given hand), she has a plan where she is taking over and asking the questions. Answer them. If Opener has asked everything she wants to ask and subsides, Responder might continue on from there.

Sometimes trusting the 2C opener to know what she is doing, and staying out of her way until she finishes doing it can be fun/profitable; OR:

2C-2D (just a waiting noise, staying out of the way)
3S-? (3S set trump and wants me to start cueing cheapest bullet or NT with a King, after which she will making asking bids.)

X AXXXX AXX AXXXX was my holding. I could let her torture the two of us for a few more rounds, but her sequence would not start this way without ten tricks in her hand. Thus, 7NT was automatic. AKQJTXXX XX V KQX was a bit less than a sure ten tricks, but enough for the claim at trick one.



I agree... When one has a better quailty of a suit he must be the boss.
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#39 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-March-04, 07:15

View Postaguahombre, on 2014-March-02, 16:27, said:

Responder holding a super positive hand should still stay out of the way of a 2C opening bidder's plan until that hand has been limited. If Opener rebids 2N, Responder is in charge.. the only one of the two hands which is unlimited.

If opener rebids 3 of a suit (She should not do so with the given hand), she has a plan where she is taking over and asking the questions. Answer them. If Opener has asked everything she wants to ask and subsides, Responder might continue on from there.

Sometimes trusting the 2C opener to know what she is doing, and staying out of her way until she finishes doing it can be fun/profitable; OR:

2C-2D (just a waiting noise, staying out of the way)
3S-? (3S set trump and wants me to start cueing cheapest bullet or NT with a King, after which she will making asking bids.)

X AXXXX AXX AXXXX was my holding. I could let her torture the two of us for a few more rounds, but her sequence would not start this way without ten tricks in her hand. Thus, 7NT was automatic. AKQJTXXX XX V KQX was a bit less than a sure ten tricks, but enough for the claim at trick one.


In some way I agree with this, another example is the best hand I've ever held when partner opened 2, x, A, AKxxx, Axxxxx, our auction was 2-3(we play an old fashioned 2 neg, and don't require a better suit for this)-4-7N, partner's hand was 8 solid, KQ10x, x, void, the only thing missing was the spade lead to force you to discard the A to make it.
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#40 User is offline   MinorKid 

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Posted 2014-March-04, 07:57

2 2N
3 3
3N 4

now what?

4N. 5~
7

the worst 12HCP count needs only a fitness for the thirteenth trick.
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