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Six-five come alive?

#1 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2013-October-15, 03:52


Game all, IMPs. RHO deals and opens 4.

Too dangerous to bid? Or too dangerous to pass?
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#2 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2013-October-15, 04:07

too dangerous to pass, I would like a better hand to bid on but there is no way I am letting 4 buy it. If partner goes higher unsuccesfully I won't blame him.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2013-October-15, 12:15

I pass, but with trepidation.

There is, imo, a lot to consider here altho I may be guilty of overthinking.

1. low in priority but still a valid concern is the possibility of going for a number when LHO holds the hand we'd like partner to hold.

2. Also low in priority is the chance that we belong in diamonds and can get there by passing (partner reopens with 4N), and not if we bid 4

3. Far greater, imo, is the chance that bidding now turns a likely plus into a minus or exchanges a minus on defence for an equivalent or worse minus on offence. Thus give partner a medium hand such as Axx xx Kxx AQJxx.

We rate to be plus on defence if he passes it out and to get a better plus in 4 if he reopens. However, if we bid 4, how can he pass? And what chance do we think we have at the 5-level?

4. How common are the hands where 4 is good (makes or good save) AND he can't reopen if we pass in tempo? My guess is relatively low, compared to the number of hands on which we overcall and bad things happen.

5. Will we miss a slam if I pass? Partner may have a great hand and be unable to move over 4 if he reopens, fearing a similar sort of hand without, say, the diamond Ace or the stiff heart.

I am perhaps biased by my personal experiences, and maybe my problem is that as partner I tend to choose aggression over conservatism when my partner bids here. If your partner tends to be conservative....if he'd pass 4 with Axx xx Kxx AQJxx or equivalent hands, then I think the scales tilt the other way.


I thought this was a good problem, btw.
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#4 User is offline   Lord Molyb 

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Posted 2013-October-15, 13:30

when I have a worse hand than the pre-empt I tend to pass unless partner asks me to bid.
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#5 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2013-October-15, 13:59

 WellSpyder, on 2013-October-15, 03:52, said:


Game all, IMPs. RHO deals and opens 4.

Too dangerous to bid? Or too dangerous to pass?


I would bid 4
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#6 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2013-October-15, 14:20

I'd bid 4. I don't want to defend 4 and I don't want to be dummy in 5. There is a risk that partner will take us too high, but he should give me a lot of leeway.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#7 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2013-October-15, 14:22

4 for me, with the caveat that this is a gut reaction and not a well thought out one. When I saw the hand, passing wasn't even a serious thought for me, which probably says that I'm way too aggressive, since Mike does even more than _think_ about pass, he actually _does_ pass. But he's Canadian, so... :P
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#8 User is offline   Lord Molyb 

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Posted 2013-October-15, 14:24

 wyman, on 2013-October-15, 14:22, said:

4 for me, with the caveat that this is a gut reaction and not a well thought out one. When I saw the hand, passing wasn't even a serious thought for me, which probably says that I'm way too aggressive, since Mike does even more than _think_ about pass, he actually _does_ pass. But he's Canadian, so... :P

I consider pass obvious, and I thought I was aggressive :o
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#9 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2013-October-15, 16:07

 gnasher, on 2013-October-15, 14:20, said:

There is a risk that partner will take us too high, but he should give me a lot of leeway.


Well said !

Pd should not be acting as if we jumped to 4 over 3 . I wish there were more accurate ways of telling pd that we bid 4 spade with what we have or a stronger hand. But unfortunately, after preempts, especially 4 level preempts, we do not have that kind of luxury. I know it seems odd to bid 4 with a hand that would not have opened 1 , but now that they opened 4 showing a (7)-8-9 card hearts and the fact that our hand indicates they have a very good chance of making it, besides another fact that we also can make without expecting too much from pd, makes me bid 4.

Each time i see a problem like that on BBF, and i believe BBF is full of that type of topics and decisions we face vs preempts, i remember other threads where people are too picky with their preempts and always have an excuse not to preempt (i have 2 aces, i have a void, i have a side 3 card major, i have a side 4 card major, i have too much controls...etc etc) Everyone has a different taste, but i personally prefer this type of opponents where they preempt rarely and do not put me in situations where bidding or passing both may be a disaster for me, or when they preempt, having a more precise picture of their hands which would help me in bidding - declarer play or defense. This is like having RHP (right hand pd) or LHP (left hand pd) or having 3 partners Posted Image
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#10 User is offline   GreenMan 

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Posted 2013-October-15, 16:38

 MrAce, on 2013-October-15, 16:07, said:

This is like having RHP (right hand pd) or LHP (left hand pd) or having 3 partners Posted Image


RHP, LHP, and CHO. :D
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#11 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2013-October-16, 18:00

We need a different partner since we do not trust this current partner to
properly know when/how to balance over 4h p p -----Asking p to give you
some leeway is one thing but introducing a rotten moth eaten fleabag
5 card suit vul at the 4 level is asking for an 8 lane superhighway and even
worse spades isn't even our best suit. we might be going down a ton in
a lousy spade contract while we can make 7d (just a thought). I might
be willing to grant some leeway to someone that bids 4s with a hand
similar to AQJxx x xxxxx xx where we at least have something that
resembles an actual spade suit but with this particular collection it seems
more like madness to bid 4s. P will never again have a clue what to do
if we are willing to bid with this garbage just because it is our turn.

PASS

Just in case I wasn't clear and lets decide how to proceed after p
acts. BTW almost any partner that sees this collection of ick that
bid 4s will know you do not trust their pass out seat judgement one
iota and they may strongly consider finding someone that does.

pass = 10 4s = 2 (there are worse bids)
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#12 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2013-October-16, 20:05

 gszes, on 2013-October-16, 18:00, said:

We need a different partner since we do not trust this current partner to
properly know when/how to balance over 4h p p -----Asking p to give you
some leeway is one thing but introducing a rotten moth eaten fleabag
5 card suit vul at the 4 level is asking for an 8 lane superhighway and even
worse spades isn't even our best suit. we might be going down a ton in
a lousy spade contract while we can make 7d (just a thought). I might
be willing to grant some leeway to someone that bids 4s with a hand
similar to AQJxx x xxxxx xx where we at least have something that
resembles an actual spade suit but with this particular collection it seems
more like madness to bid 4s. P will never again have a clue what to do
if we are willing to bid with this garbage just because it is our turn.

PASS

Just in case I wasn't clear and lets decide how to proceed after p
acts. BTW almost any partner that sees this collection of ick that
bid 4s will know you do not trust their pass out seat judgement one
iota and they may strongly consider finding someone that does.

pass = 10 4s = 2 (there are worse bids)


And old partner of mine used to say TYP (trust your partner). I 100% agree that you should trust partner to know how to balance.
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#13 User is offline   bigbenvic 

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Posted 2013-October-16, 22:20

At this vulnerability I would pass in a heartbeat, just do not have the suit quality to bid at Red in this seat. Make it Green V Red and I have a tougher decision.

The question I have is that if you pass and it goes
(4) P (P) X
(P) ??
Now what. Is 4 an underbid?
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#14 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2013-October-17, 00:03

 gszes, on 2013-October-16, 18:00, said:

Asking p to give you
some leeway is one thing but introducing a rotten moth eaten fleabag
5 card suit vul at the 4 level is asking for an 8 lane superhighway and even
worse spades isn't even our best suit.


Would a moth eaten fleabag 6 card suit make a difference to you? :P
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#15 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2013-October-17, 02:07

Pass would simply not have occurred to me at the table, so I asked my notoriously conservative partner what he would do. He bid 4S without hesitation and considered pass an error.

Maybe it's something in the Australian air.
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#16 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2013-October-17, 02:40

4 in sleep
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#17 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2013-October-17, 03:36

I tend to be more conservative than some in these situations but the sixth spade makes a big difference and I think it's a clear 4.
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#18 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2013-October-17, 10:38

Interesting that more people see this as a straightforward decision than a difficult one, but that those thinking it is straightforward are split between those thinking it is a straightforward pass and those thinking it is a straightforward 4. Personally, I thought it was tricky, but chose 4 at the table.

I also note that those who are worried about bidding are split between those who think they may go for a large penalty and those concerned that partner may take them too seriously and bid on. At the table is was the first of these dangers that was the problem:

I'm not sure that the north hand would be everybody's idea of a 4 opening, but it netted +1100 on this occasion!
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#19 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2013-October-17, 10:51

 MickyB, on 2013-October-17, 02:40, said:

4 in sleep

WAKE UP!

I pass. :)
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#20 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2013-October-17, 12:20

Pass, for now.

Any bid that I would make directly now takes a view of the hand which might or might not be right. If partner has cards, partner may play me for a much better hand and get us too high.

If partner finds a double, I can bid 4 knowing it's probably right. OTOH, if partner has the minors and bids 4 NT, I have an easy 5 bid.
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