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〖美国大师讲座〗为什么要打2/1 逼局体系不打美国标准体系

#1 User is offline   DJNeill 

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Posted 2013-September-29, 15:21

TWO OVER ONE GF vs STANDARD AMERICAN (convenient minor)


The Problem with Standard Bidding: too many non-forcing bids force both sides to guess a lot.

Examples that demonstrate problems with standard american:

Problem 1. Responder must force to game without finding major suit length

Playing Standard American, North, opener, has one of these 2 hands:
a. AJxxx AJxxx x Kx
b. AJxxx AJxx xxx K

and the auction begins 1-2-2 as it should. South has a game forcing hand, say, one of these two:

c. Q Kxx KQx Axxxxx
d. xx x KQxx AQJxxx

First letís consider that opener has (a) and responder has ©. After 2, South must choose between 3 (4th suit game forcing) to get more information, or 3NT (2NT and 3 would be non-forcing, and 3 would promise 4 hearts). If South chooses 3N, North should not remove to 4 lest South have (d). If South chooses 3, North has an easy 3 rebid and game is found. So 3 is the answer then.

But what if North has (b)? Over 1-2-2-3, she is stuck. If she rebids 3 that shows 5, 3 would show 6 (or a great 5), and 4 would show at least a doubleton. This might seem a little contrived. For instance often 3N will play well despite a 5-3 heart fit (or 6-2 spade fit), but in general it is better to play in the 8 card major fit when one hand has a singleton.

Problem 2. Responder must force to game somehow without stoppers in the side suits.

North: AJxxxx x Qx KQxx
South: x AQJ AKJxxx xxx
1 2
2 ?

Here, North rebids 2, waiting, and South is stuck. 2NT and 3 are nonforcing, but she has a GF hand. 3 would not be a problem on length (we all lie about minor suit length sometimes) but it is not descriptive at all (North here could raise clubs). 3 is correct in terms of stoppers, but what if North had:

AJxxxx xxxx Q AK

North raises 3 to game and South is stuck when 3N is clearly best. So this is an impossible problem.

Problem 3. Openerís raise of the 2-level response hamstrings responder

North: AQJxx x Kxxx Kxx
South: Kx xx AQxxx Qxxx

North opens 1, and South responds 2, having too much for a non-forcing 1N response. North has an easy 3 raise. Now what should responder do? Is North maximum or minimum? Does North have 3 or 4 card support? Does North have a stopper or 6 spades? Another impossible problem.

Problem 4. Openerís 2NT rebid is impossible to read.

North: AJTxx Kxx xx AQx
South: xx Qxx AJ9xx KJx

North opens 1 and South responds 2. North has a classic NT rebid Ė all suits stopped, tolerance for partner, only 5 in the opened suit. Does South continue to game or not? North may have 12 HCP or may have 14 (or a bad 15 if played that way). Or should North have anticipated this problem and rebid 3NT. What should opener have rebid with 17-19 balanced then? This is a tricky subject, and SAYC leaves these questions unanswered.

Problem 5. Showing stoppers and finding the best fit is a complete guess.

North: AQJxxxx Kx A xxx
South: x Axxx KQxxx AQx

North opens 1 and South responds 2 and North rebids 2. South, to cater to openerís 6-4 rebids 3. North, with no stopper rebids 3. South now is not sure if North is showing a 7+ card suit (or great 6) or just denying a club stopper, so South must guess whether to raise to 4 or bid 3N, not to mention whether slam is in the offing or not. If South rebids 3N, then North passes 3N and finds partner with just one club stopper, or
bids 4 and finds partner with the actual hand (a perfecto for declaring Ė protecting the clubs from the lead).

Problem 6. Showing slam interest is near-impossible.

North: AJxxx KQxxx Kx Q
South: Kx AJxx AQJxx Jx

The auction begins 1-2-2, and South now cannot bid 3 (nonforcing) but is a bit too good for 4. What if North has 16 HCP? Basically both sides are about 12-16 HCP and there is no way for either side to do anything cooperative. Maybe South could bid 3 (GF) and then 4, but without prior agreement, itís anybodyís guess.

North: AJxxx xxx AQJx K
South: Kx Ax Kxxxxxx Qx

Here it is not responder but opener that has extra values, but no intelligent way to show it after 1-2. To bid 3 is to risk partner passing, and to bid 4 is not even well-defined, but it might even be a 5-5 - hand. What can North do? South is not going to take any steps towards slam.

The result of all these little problems is one of three solutions:

1. Practice, discuss, and develop arbitrary agreements (and thus not Standard American) to minimize the number of guesses. (e.g. 1♠-2♣-3♣ = game forcing by agreement).
2. Bid quickly to avoid giving unauthorized information to partner, but the decision tends to be hasty and without full due consideration.
3. Bid slowly, choosing the least harmful guess, at the cost of giving lots of unauthorized information to partner.

I have seen #1 in use to good effect Ė a bad system played well is better than a good system played badly. I donít think I would be writing this article if I thought that was an acceptable solution.

#2 is the best solution on-the-fly with a new partnership.

#3 unfortunately is the norm at the club level, whether they know it or not. But it is not their fault. The system is to blame!

Some of these problems apply to precision as well, but it's a lot better at least.

I believe the answer is to use 2/1 game forcing.

Thanks,
Dan
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#2 User is offline   lxl3256 

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Posted 2013-September-29, 23:24

View PostDJNeill, on 2013-September-29, 15:21, said:

TWO OVER ONE GF vs STANDARD AMERICAN (convenient minor)


The Problem with Standard Bidding: too many non-forcing bids force both sides to guess a lot.

Examples that demonstrate problems with standard american:

Problem 1. Responder must force to game without finding major suit length

Playing Standard American, North, opener, has one of these 2 hands:
a. AJxxx AJxxx x Kx
b. AJxxx AJxx xxx K

and the auction begins 1-2-2 as it should. South has a game forcing hand, say, one of these two:

c. Q Kxx KQx Axxxxx
d. xx x KQxx AQJxxx

First let's consider that opener has (a) and responder has ©. After 2, South must choose between 3 (4th suit game forcing) to get more information, or 3NT (2NT and 3 would be non-forcing, and 3 would promise 4 hearts). If South chooses 3N, North should not remove to 4 lest South have (d). If South chooses 3, North has an easy 3 rebid and game is found. So 3 is the answer then.

But what if North has (b)? Over 1-2-2-3, she is stuck. If she rebids 3 that shows 5, 3 would show 6 (or a great 5), and 4 would show at least a doubleton. This might seem a little contrived. For instance often 3N will play well despite a 5-3 heart fit (or 6-2 spade fit), but in general it is better to play in the 8 card major fit when one hand has a singleton.

Problem 2. Responder must force to game somehow without stoppers in the side suits.

North: AJxxxx x Qx KQxx
South: x AQJ AKJxxx xxx
1 2
2 ?

Here, North rebids 2, waiting, and South is stuck. 2NT and 3 are nonforcing, but she has a GF hand. 3 would not be a problem on length (we all lie about minor suit length sometimes) but it is not descriptive at all (North here could raise clubs). 3 is correct in terms of stoppers, but what if North had:

AJxxxx xxxx Q AK

North raises 3 to game and South is stuck when 3N is clearly best. So this is an impossible problem.

Problem 3. Opener's raise of the 2-level response hamstrings responder

North: AQJxx x Kxxx Kxx
South: Kx xx AQxxx Qxxx

North opens 1, and South responds 2, having too much for a non-forcing 1N response. North has an easy 3 raise. Now what should responder do? Is North maximum or minimum? Does North have 3 or 4 card support? Does North have a stopper or 6 spades? Another impossible problem.

Problem 4. Opener's 2NT rebid is impossible to read.

North: AJTxx Kxx xx AQx
South: xx Qxx AJ9xx KJx

North opens 1 and South responds 2. North has a classic NT rebid – all suits stopped, tolerance for partner, only 5 in the opened suit. Does South continue to game or not? North may have 12 HCP or may have 14 (or a bad 15 if played that way). Or should North have anticipated this problem and rebid 3NT. What should opener have rebid with 17-19 balanced then? This is a tricky subject, and SAYC leaves these questions unanswered.

Problem 5. Showing stoppers and finding the best fit is a complete guess.

North: AQJxxxx Kx A xxx
South: x Axxx KQxxx AQx

North opens 1 and South responds 2 and North rebids 2. South, to cater to opener's 6-4 rebids 3. North, with no stopper rebids 3. South now is not sure if North is showing a 7+ card suit (or great 6) or just denying a club stopper, so South must guess whether to raise to 4 or bid 3N, not to mention whether slam is in the offing or not. If South rebids 3N, then North passes 3N and finds partner with just one club stopper, or
bids 4 and finds partner with the actual hand (a perfecto for declaring – protecting the clubs from the lead).

Problem 6. Showing slam interest is near-impossible.

North: AJxxx KQxxx Kx Q
South: Kx AJxx AQJxx Jx

The auction begins 1-2-2, and South now cannot bid 3 (nonforcing) but is a bit too good for 4. What if North has 16 HCP? Basically both sides are about 12-16 HCP and there is no way for either side to do anything cooperative. Maybe South could bid 3 (GF) and then 4, but without prior agreement, it's anybody's guess.

North: AJxxx xxx AQJx K
South: Kx Ax Kxxxxxx Qx

Here it is not responder but opener that has extra values, but no intelligent way to show it after 1-2. To bid 3 is to risk partner passing, and to bid 4 is not even well-defined, but it might even be a 5-5 - hand. What can North do? South is not going to take any steps towards slam.

The result of all these little problems is one of three solutions:

1. Practice, discuss, and develop arbitrary agreements (and thus not Standard American) to minimize the number of guesses. (e.g. 1♠-2♣-3♣ = game forcing by agreement).
2. Bid quickly to avoid giving unauthorized information to partner, but the decision tends to be hasty and without full due consideration.
3. Bid slowly, choosing the least harmful guess, at the cost of giving lots of unauthorized information to partner.

I have seen #1 in use to good effect – a bad system played well is better than a good system played badly. I don't think I would be writing this article if I thought that was an acceptable solution.

#2 is the best solution on-the-fly with a new partnership.

#3 unfortunately is the norm at the club level, whether they know it or not. But it is not their fault. The system is to blame!

Some of these problems apply to precision as well, but it's a lot better at least.

I believe the answer is to use 2/1 game forcing.

Thanks,
Dan



为什么要打二盖一逼局体系,不打标准美国体系(便宜的低花)


翻译者:lxl3256,lycier
审核者:lycier

标准叫牌法的问题是:在这种体系中有太多的非逼叫叫品迫使搭档双方在叫牌进程中进行过多的猜测。

下面示例以滋证明标准美国体系业已存在的问题:

问题一 :
在尚未发现高花长度时,应叫人必须逼叫进局。


打美国标准体系,北家开叫,有以下任一手牌:

A:AJxxx AJxxx x Kx

B: AJxxx AJxx xxx K

叫牌进程1S-2C-2H-。南家有一手逼局的牌,如下:

C: Q Kxx KQx Axxxxx

D: xx x KQxx AQJxxx

首先假设开叫者持A,应叫方持C。(A:AJxxx AJxxx x Kx C: Q Kxx KQx Axxxxx)

在2H后,南家必须选择3D(第四花色)获得更多信息,或3NT(2NT与3C不逼叫,3H承诺4张)。如果南家选择3NT,北家不应因担心南家持有D这一手牌而改叫4H。如果南家选择3D,北家很容易叫出3H,找到配合叫到局。因此应选择3D。

但如果北家持有B(AJxxx AJxx xxx K),1S-2C-2H-3D后将陷入困境。如果叫3H表示5张,3S表示6张(或好的5张),4C至少双张。看起来有点勉强。尽管在有5-3 红心配(或黑桃6-2配合)时3NT也通常是个好订约,但在一方有单张时打8张配合的高花更好一些。

问题2:在边花无止张时,应叫人莫名其妙地必须逼局。


N:AJxxxx x Qx KQxx

S: x AQJ AKJxxx xxx

1S-2D

2S-?

N再叫2S,等待,南家陷入困境。2NT与3D不逼叫,但他有一手逼局的牌。3C在长度上不是问题(我们有时在低花长度描述上会有点出入)但这根本就不是描述性的(北家现在会加叫C)。3H在挡张上是正确的,但如果北家有以下牌:

AJXXXX XXXX Q AK

北家会加叫3H到局,南家陷入困境,3NT明显是最好订约。因此,这个问题难以解决。

问题3:开叫方对二阶应叫的加叫让应叫方为难

N:AQJxx x Kxxx Kxx

S: Kx xx AQxxx Qxxx

北家开叫1S,南家应叫2D(牌力较不逼叫的1NT高太多)。北家很容易加叫3D。现在如何继续?北家是高限还是低限?北家是3张还是4张支持?北家有一个红心止张或6张黑心?又一个难以解决的问题。

问题4:开叫方的2NT再叫难以读懂

N:AQTxx Kxx xx AQx

S: xx Qxx AJ9xx KJx

北开叫1S,南应叫2D,北有一个典型的2NT再叫---所有花色止张,同伴可容忍的,开叫花色仅5张。南家继续到局还是停止?北家可能12HCP或14HCP(或坏的15如果选用)。或者,北家可以预先行动再叫3NT。开叫方有17-19HCP时如何再叫?这是个复杂的课题,SAYC没有做出回答。

问题5:显示止张与寻找最好配合完全靠猜测

N:AQJxxxx Kx A xxx

S: x Axxx KQxxx AQx

北开叫1S,南2D,北再叫2S。南家为防止开叫方6张S,四张H,再叫3H。北没有C止张,再叫3S。南家现在不能确定北家是在显示7张套(或好的6张)还是仅在否认C止张,因此南家必须猜测加叫到4S还是叫3NT,更不要说对满贯的把握了。如果南家再叫3NT,北家pass并发现搭档只有一个C止张,或叫4S发现同伴如上面牌情(对庄家来说是完美的---避免C首功)。

问题6:显示满贯兴趣几乎不可能

N:AJxxx KQxxx Kx Q

S: Kx AJxx AQJxx Jx

1S-2D-2H,南家不能再叫3H(不逼叫)但牌力比4H又好太多。如果北家有16HCP怎么办?基本上双方都是12-16HCP 且双方都没有办法进一步显示合作。或许南可以叫3C(GF)然后叫4H,但没有事先沟通,仅仅是猜测。

N:AJxxx xxx AQJx K

S: Kx Ax Kxxxxxx Qx

这儿不是应叫方而是开叫方有额外实力,但在1S-2D后没有好的办法显示。叫3D有被同伴pass的风险,叫4C甚至不是一个明确的叫品,因为有可能为55双套。北如何做?南也不会进一步采取满贯试探。

这些小问题的结果有三个解决方案:


1- 在练习和讨论体系时采用主观约定(这样就不是美国标准体系)以减少猜测。

(例:1S-2C-3C=需要约定为逼局)

2- 速达,避免给同伴不明确信息,但这样的决定就显得行动草率,缺乏充分的考虑。


3- 慢慢叫牌,选择最少的不利猜测,但代价是传递给同伴很多不明确信息。

我曾经见过用第一条取得了好的效果现象:一个发挥出色的不完善体系要比一个发挥很差的完善体系更好一些。我觉得如果这是一个可接受的解决方案的话,那么我也不必写这篇文章了。

第二条方案是与新搭档间的一个快捷的最佳解决方案。

第三条方案通常是俱乐部层面的规范方式,无论使用者知不知道。但这不是使用者的错,是体系的错。
这些问题中的一部分也存在于精确体系之中,只是精确体系至少要稍好一些。
我确信答案是采用二盖一进局体系。

要打二盖一体系,不打标准美国体系 !


谢谢。



This post has been edited by lycier: 2013-December-05, 21:39

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#3 User is offline   nbxkh 

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Posted 2013-September-30, 00:45

感谢田野的公益奉献!
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#4 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2013-September-30, 02:33

我们怀着感佩的心情,深深感谢美国大师丹∑内尔的指导 !
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#5 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2013-September-30, 17:48

其实,二盖一体系业已成为桥牌世界的基础体系,值得全世界牌手认真学习,这是不争的事实!
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#6 User is offline   sfbcs 

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Posted 2013-October-01, 20:09

谢谢Dan Neill大师!谢谢lxl3256翻译!
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#7 User is offline   haikuo 

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Posted 2013-October-02, 04:58

我就是想打竞技桥牌,想提高,要多谢大师的指导!
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#8 User is offline   shisun 

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Posted 2013-October-03, 20:52

谢谢分享。大师辛苦,翻译人员辛苦了。
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#9 User is offline   hongxl 

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Posted 2013-October-09, 06:03

View Postlycier, on 2013-September-30, 17:48, said:

其实,二盖一体系业已成为桥牌世界的基础体系,值得全世界牌手认真学习,这是不争的事实!

所以我在认真的学,谢谢大师,谢谢老师,谢谢翻译的朋友。 :rolleyes:
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#10 User is offline   hdgh001 

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Posted 2013-December-05, 00:17

View Postlycier, on 2013-September-30, 17:48, said:

其实,二盖一体系业已成为桥牌世界的基础体系,值得全世界牌手认真学习,这是不争的事实!
看来不学习是不行了。
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#11 User is offline   snowfen 

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Posted 2013-December-05, 20:57

谢谢Dan Neill大师!谢谢lxl3256翻译!
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#12 User is offline   yhql 

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Posted 2013-December-09, 04:14

谢谢
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#13 User is offline   cvcherry 

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Posted 2014-March-01, 07:58

作为老自然(即非2/1逼局体系)的拥护者,我说说吧。。
问题1:我没看懂。假设的本来不就是应叫人C的时候叫3D么,那就没有8张高花配合。
问题2:同样没看懂。1S-2D-2S后,我支持3H再叫。但如果开叫人持下面示例的牌,为何要再叫2S而不是2H呢?2S再叫可就错了。
问题3:我承认确实不好解决,3D后,应叫人或许可以再叫3S,但那同样是个歪曲,这里问题是没办法叫3C来等待了,所以没办法知道H止张的问题了。
问题4:1S-2D;2NT-3D有什么问题吗?3D本来就是邀请3NT。这个2NT应该是12~15-点。持17+以上,应该跳叫3NT表示。
问题5:3S承诺7张。还有什么问题吗?
问题6:1S-2D-2H-3H,是逼叫的。2/1后尽管不逼局,但仅当某方再叫原花色显示失配时。3H加叫当然逼局。难道SAYC的3H不逼叫,我认为毫无道理。
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#14 User is offline   Baccrat 

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Posted 2017-September-05, 21:34

也是,这些小问题我也经常遇到过
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