BBO Discussion Forums: Do pre-empts work? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Do pre-empts work?

#1 User is offline   ahydra 

  • AQT92 AQ --- QJ6532
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,385
  • Joined: 2009-September-09
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2013-September-06, 07:35

Nobody at the club managed to bid this 15-top-tricker. IMPs, NS are vul. Spots approximate.



(feel free to disagree with opening 1C)

At our table North bid 6H over 3S and South passed. Our team-mates managed something like (p)-1C-(2S)-4H; 4NT-5S; 6H (why on earth South didn't look for grand I don't know, she mentioned something about being afraid of a 4-1 heart split). Can you do better?

ahydra
0

#2 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,028
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2013-September-06, 08:24

I would not expect, as your teammate did, that a heart loser was an issue. Asking for Kings would guarantee all the Keys, and I believe then North should just bid the grand with an extra trump and the side KQX of Diamonds. Even though 3H rather than 4 was available at the other table, the 3-bid would have left concern about a heart loser --so, 4 should have been a lucky choice.

The blast to six hearts by the opponent at your table was not totally unreasonable; he was undoubtedly worried 4H could be viewed as a mere pressure bid and had no idea what a 5H jump would show. The South at your table was equally hamstrung.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#3 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,470
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2013-September-06, 09:05

In the auction at your table, 6H is surely right. Obviously you cannot bid 4H (which you would bid with 2.5 tricks less), and 5H (natural slam invite) seems pessmistic. Even if you take away both red aces from partner's hand, you make slam on a spade lead...
But South certainly has a raise, partner isn't so likely to have a void, so he bid 6H missing three first round controls. He won't be missing much else.

At the other table, of course 6H is blatantly wrong. But 4H is also a huge underbid, just bid 3H for now and then try for slam. 4H does not show a four-loser hand.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
2

#4 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,288
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2013-September-06, 09:27

couldn't put it better than cherdano so won't even try.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#5 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2013-September-06, 09:32

The North hand is a good advert for transfers or Switch.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
1

#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,741
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2013-September-06, 09:51

In your second auction, South has only to bid 4 over 4 and now North can take control. Having said that, I am no great fan of the direct 4 response. Why not start with 3 and get some extra information along the way? That said, if the 4 jump says "super-strong and hearts are trumps" then it is perfect. But in that case, South would not need to worry about 4-1 hearts; 4-0 perhaps but KQxxxx is hardly the suit for such a bid. I guess the question is precisely what 4 was agreed to mean if this heart suit was a realistic possibility.

After 3 it is much more difficult. I guess a reasonable start would be 4, then perhaps 4NT - 6 gets across the fact that North has a very powerful hand with solid hearts and first round spade control. That makes it much easier for South to bid the grand.

Luckily it is IMPs so it does not matter which one. If it were MPs, getting to 7NT after the 3 overcall is a serious challenge. But 7 is likely to be enough in any non-expert field. Kinda interested if any of the better players feel they would get to 7NT with their regular partners in practise though, and what agreements they have that make it possible.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#7 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,028
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2013-September-06, 10:33

It would never occur to me that 4H over 2S was anything other than extra length and strength. I am not preempting over a preempt in this situation or any other....Again why I don't think 3H would have been helpful this time.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,741
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2013-September-06, 10:39

As a preempt would truly be a silly use. But some might consider playing it as showing the rounded suits. As I wrote above, clearly the South in this auction did not think it showed that or they would not have been worried about a 4-1 trump break. That would leave North with KQxxxx, hardly extra length and strength.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#9 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,247
  • Joined: 2010-October-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 2013-September-06, 10:55

View PostZelandakh, on 2013-September-06, 09:51, said:

.... Kinda interested if any of the better players feel they would get to 7NT with their regular partners in practice though, and what agreements they have that make it possible.

Here is a "result" of all "resulting" :

( p )- 1C - ( 3S ) - ??

Nouth, with no 2-quick losers bids 4NT = RKCB for their last bid suit as trump: .

South replies 5D ( 1 or 4 )

North assumes it is 4 key cards which includes the K and can count 13 tricks off the top
and bids 7NT .
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
0

#10 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,879
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2013-September-06, 10:56

Nice low-level help (I was thinking double) is very susceptible to the spade raise. And sure enough, they do have a 10-card fit. I can't believe at these colours they didn't find a 4 call at the other table - even 7 likely beats 6. I know that 7 certainly makes it more likely that you'll be scoring up -2220 and maybe -2210 will have some company, but there it is.
0

#11 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,288
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2013-September-06, 14:50

View PostZelandakh, on 2013-September-06, 10:39, said:

As a preempt would truly be a silly use. But some might consider playing it as showing the rounded suits. As I wrote above, clearly the South in this auction did not think it showed that or they would not have been worried about a 4-1 trump break. That would leave North with KQxxxx, hardly extra length and strength.

I don't agree. I think that specifically in hearts, over 2, or in spades over 3, the jump to game can and should be used for a specific type of hand, limited in hcp and slam suitability.

We hold, say, x KQJ10xxxx Qx xx

Partner deals, and opens 1, and RHO bids 2. We are never playing less than 4 and we surely do not want to suggest defence by bidding 3...then we couldn't respect partner's decision to double or pass should they bid 4, plus after we double, partner might bid 5 on a 2-suiter, expecting a more flexible hand.

So I think there is a very real need to be able to announce a good, long suit with playing values and no defence and that we should reserve the jump to game in the OM for this, over an opposing major pre-empt overcall.

I don't see this sequence as analogous to the 'don't pre-empt over a pre-empt' rule about their opening pre-empts. There is a huge and critical distinction with the current thread: partner opened the bidding.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#12 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,349
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2013-September-07, 02:44

when you explain transfers or switch there is always a hand like this with from north's POV.
0

#13 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,604
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2013-September-07, 02:50

View Postcherdano, on 2013-September-06, 09:05, said:

In the auction at your table, 6H is surely right. Obviously you cannot bid 4H (which you would bid with 2.5 tricks less), and 5H (natural slam invite) seems pessmistic. Even if you take away both red aces from partner's hand, you make slam on a spade lead...
But South certainly has a raise, partner isn't so likely to have a void, so he bid 6H missing three first round controls. He won't be missing much else.

At the other table, of course 6H is blatantly wrong. But 4H is also a huge underbid, just bid 3H for now and then try for slam. 4H does not show a four-loser hand.


I also agree with this posting.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#14 User is offline   PhilKing 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,234
  • Joined: 2012-June-25

Posted 2013-September-07, 09:08

After 1-3, hands with hearts are a real problem. I play something pretty good here, which is loosely based on "Liggins Gerber":

4 = 6+ hearts, circa 13+
4 = natural, GF
4 = nat, max circa 12 points
4 = clubs, slammish
4NT = two suiter, hearts plus minor, big

With clubs, you usually double to keep 3NT in the frame, so losing 4 is not bad.
0

#15 User is offline   ahydra 

  • AQT92 AQ --- QJ6532
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,385
  • Joined: 2009-September-09
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2013-September-07, 15:44

What is "switch" (the convention)?

ahydra
0

#16 User is offline   PhilKing 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,234
  • Joined: 2012-June-25

Posted 2013-September-07, 16:03

View Postahydra, on 2013-September-07, 15:44, said:

What is "switch" (the convention)?

ahydra


Switch is where you reverse the meaning of the two unbid suits, so 4 = and 4 = .
0

#17 User is offline   PhilG007 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 693
  • Joined: 2013-February-24
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dundee Scotland United Kingdom
  • Interests:Occasional chess player. Dominoes

Posted 2013-September-08, 02:11

IMHO the South hand is just too strong for a simple 1 South should open 2 Even though West's 3 is annoying
North now knows there is a strong hand opposite him(something he wouldn't have known if South had only opened a timid 1)
This gives him the go ahead to bid his strong hearts,4 When South hears that,he hesitates no longer and bids Blackwood for Aces and Kings Learning North holds 1 Ace and 2 Kings South bids 7 without further ado
It's not a sin to play bridge,but it's a crime if you play it badly(!) ;)
"It is not enough to be a good player,you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
0

#18 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,028
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2013-September-08, 06:13

View PostPhilG007, on 2013-September-08, 02:11, said:

IMHO the South hand is just too strong for a simple 1 South should open 2 Even though West's 3 is annoying
North now knows there is a strong hand opposite him(something he wouldn't have known if South had only opened a timid 1)
This gives him the go ahead to bid his strong hearts,4 When South hears that,he hesitates no longer and bids Blackwood for Aces and Kings Learning North holds 1 Ace and 2 Kings South bids 7 without further ado

Among players with a natural system, I have found the frequency of 2C openers to be inversely proportional to the level of the game.

On line>novice>regular club>>>>tournaments. I assume lower flights at tournaments display the same traits as clubs.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
2

#19 User is offline   RSClyde 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 302
  • Joined: 2013-January-03

Posted 2013-September-08, 07:40

Here is my view:
After 2, since 3 is forcing it seems a fine way to start. Over the expected 3 (which I play as I don't know where to go), or over 4, 4 is RKC for hearts. I like the rule, if it looks like kickback then it is. Now you're off to the races.
What will instead happen is that South will bid 4 over 3. This shows a strong hand as 3 was a GF. I now have concerns that 4 might not be kickback so I'll just live with 4 RKC for clubs which works on this hand.

I play jumping to 4 as a flexible bid: I'm willing to take a shot at this opposite an opener, if they bid 4 double pass or bid on as you find appropriate. This way when you bid 3, you actually have a real GF, forcing pass and all. I mean, let's have a show of hands, who likes making a negative double with 8 hearts?

After 3 instead of 2, I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything being ace asking so I'll just bid 6 and if partner can't bid 7 with this hand, I'm getting a new partner. You certainly didn't promise 3 aces and a zillion club tricks to open the bidding.
I make videos about bridge. Check it out!

Right Syde Clyde
0

#20 User is offline   beatrix45 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 385
  • Joined: 2004-September-10
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Kalamute, BC
  • Interests:Rubber bridge for money

Posted 2013-September-08, 11:59

In my Thursday afternoon rubber bridge game (10 cents a point Canadian) all of us play the Blackwood convention. It works well on this hand. I bid 4NT. Partner answers three aces (5). I bid 5NT. Partner shows at least one king. I bid 7 or 7NT.

If we have agreed on a trump suit, then we play RKC 1430. Seems to work well. Can't remember the last time anyone failed to bid a grand with 15 top tricks. Except, of course, for Louise. Then again, Louise is a terrible player.
Trixi
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users