[Fluffy]

---

MPs, even when declarer managed to go down this was a bottom. ATB

[Hanoi5]

Some people like negative-doubling with 6 HCP's, if N-S have such an agreement I'd blame South entirely. North should bid even over 3♣ (3♥ seems ok to me), so I mainly blame him. South had another shot at doing something, but the vulnerability, the shape and the lack of action from North are a little off-putting. So I'd say North 60%, South 40%.

[Cyberyeti]

No blame, S doesn't quite have a double, N doesn't have a 3♥ bid, his suits are not quite good enough. If N bids, S will hold x, xx, xxxxxxx, Qxx and E who was going to bid 3N will happily take 8 or 11 at this vul.

You're in a very small window where you want to bid here, where partner has enough to make 3/4♥ and defeat 5♣ but not enough to X.

[nigel_k]

North should definitely bid. It needs very little from partner for 3 of a major to make. You could also push them higher or be down 1 when they are making. Catering to partner having x xx xxxxxxx Qxx is much too pessimistic. What about all the normal hands?

No blame to South whose two passes are very normal.

[Cyberyeti]

nigel_k, on 2013-June-14, 19:32, said:

North should definitely bid. It needs very little from partner for 3 of a major to make. You could also push them higher or be down 1 when they are making. Catering to partner having x xx xxxxxxx Qxx is much too pessimistic. What about all the normal hands?

No blame to South whose two passes are very normal.

The hand was chosen to be deliberately pessimistic, but I feel you're going for 200 against a partscore most of the time if they are going to double.

[inquiry]

A couple of close decisions for NS that has run amok.

North could choose to pass in first seat, planning on coming in with a two suited overcall if appropriate. In that case, the bidding would go p-1c-p-1D-ZZ where ZZ is whatever you use to show the other two suits. A jump to 2NT, a sandwich 1NT, a double, or a cue-bid. That would find hearts for you.

South is a bit light for a negative double at the two level, and the vulnerability, but he could live with any suit partner wants to rebid at the two level.

North, having opened, I think has a clear pass over 3♣ given his South could not even make a negative double.

I would have passed in first seat and doubled in third seat, but I will not blame either player as none of it is clearly right.

[mike777]

inquiry, on 2013-June-15, 00:03, said:

A couple of close decisions for NS that has run amok.

North could choose to pass in first seat, planning on coming in with a two suited overcall if appropriate. In that case, the bidding would go p-1c-p-1D-ZZ where ZZ is whatever you use to show the other two suits. A jump to 2NT, a sandwich 1NT, a double, or a cue-bid. That would find hearts for you.

South is a bit light for a negative double at the two level, and the vulnerability, but he could live with any suit partner wants to rebid at the two level.

North, having opened, I think has a clear pass over 3♣ given his South could not even make a negative double.

I would have passed in first seat and doubled in third seat, but I will not blame either player as none of it is clearly right.

[gnasher]

I think South has a normal negative double. When all the possible strains can be bid at the two level, you don't need any great strength. With this hand you should want to bid: you have Ax in partner's suit, and you're happy to hear partner bid either red suit.

Also, if you don't bid now and partner balances with double, you've created another problem. You'd bid 2♥, presumably, but that might miss a game, and it might be the wrong partscore opposite a 5341 or 5332 shape.

[Codo]

I would double with the sout hand. Yes, the point count is minimum, but Ax in partner first suit are a good reason to see the world a little rosier then the point count suggests.
Over the double, we would reach 4 ♥ in a heartbeat.

Without the double, north should bid 3 ♥. If you are dealt 6/5 in the majors, bid them.

[gszes]

gnasher and codo hit on the theme that Ax in p first bid suit is a
heck of a lot moire optimistic looking than say holding the same
distribution with AJx clubs instead where I would be quiet as a
church mouse. Don't worry so much about the exact number of
HCP as much as how helpful will what you have work with what
p has shown in the bidding. I see no reason to not upgrade this
holding to a nice minimum for a neg x.

Partners are wisely cautious at imps when facing a possible
yarboro and your neg x at least lets them know you are not broke.

Many consider support like Ax as good as xxx for them the neg x is
a simple bid since they not only have what they consider ample
spade support but can also show a possible second place to play
aside from spades. I think it is unfair to blame N for not bidding 3h
at these colors the risk vs reward is just too great at imps

[PhilKing]

North's pass over 3♣ is a wild gamble.

You are going to get doubled almost never, and need very little for game. It's not so much the hands where partner has four hearts (which is a very small target when partner passed over 2♣), it is hands such as:

♠Qx
♥Jxx
♦Axxxx
♣xxx

Where partner lacked the shape to double. It's not too specific - partner is likely to have a few points and that shape given the lack of a cue raise, and partner will pass 3♥ if less suitable. Also, we may well end up defending a club game or 3NT, and I may need a heart lead to beat them. If we pass and it goes 3NT pass pass, you are going to feel pretty sick, right?

As for South, I would not double. One person's ideal shape is another's balanced pile of rubbish, I guess.

[ggwhiz]

PhilKing, on 2013-June-15, 10:30, said:

North's pass over 3♣ is a wild gamble.
As for South, I would not double. One person's ideal shape is another's balanced pile of rubbish, I guess.

It's MP's and I don't always look both ways before I cross the road. I would bid 3♥ with the North hand at imps too and maybe even faster.

And if pard made a negative double on the South cards I would always be bidding too much in 4/5 competitive auctions. Thinking pard will be able or willing to bid comfortably at the 2 level is just plain wrong imo.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2013-June-15, 10:30, said:

North's pass over 3♣ is a wild gamble.

You are going to get doubled almost never, and need very little for game. It's not so much the hands where partner has four hearts (which is a very small target when partner passed over 2♣), it is hands such as:

♠Qx
♥Jxx
♦Axxxx
♣xxx

Where partner lacked the shape to double. It's not too specific - partner is likely to have a few points and that shape given the lack of a cue raise, and partner will pass 3♥ if less suitable. Also, we may well end up defending a club game or 3NT, and I may need a heart lead to beat them. If we pass and it goes 3NT pass pass, you are going to feel pretty sick, right?

As for South, I would not double. One person's ideal shape is another's balanced pile of rubbish, I guess.

It depends if you play against people who overcall 2♣ with AJ, KJ9x, x, AKxxxx where I'd double 3♥ like a shot if I had a penalty double available as many people will.

The other danger is that partner has a similar hand to yours but with ♦xxxxx/♥KJx and they now bid and make 5♣ when they were going to play 3.

[gwnn]

With all due respect, your example hands are coming from galaxies farther and farther away as time goes by, Cyberyeti.

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-June-15, 11:37, said:

The other danger is that partner has a similar hand to yours but with ♦xxxxx/♥KJx and they now bid and make 5♣ when they were going to play 3.

I might be being a bit thick, but are they not allowed to bid game if I pass?

3♥ is simply the obvious bid, it's just is not particularly dangerous and has several ways to win. Yes, it could lose, but highly unlikely that it will propel them into an otherwise impossible to reach game.

I'm staggered by how many people want to bid on what is effectively a fitless balanced five count, but give them a nice 6-5 and they go back into their shells.

[cargobeep]

If my partner didn't bid 3♥ here, I would kick them on the head.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2013-June-15, 12:00, said:

I might be being a bit thick, but are they not allowed to bid game if I pass?

3♥ is simply the obvious bid, it's just is not particularly dangerous and has several ways to win. Yes, it could lose, but highly unlikely that it will propel them into an otherwise impossible to reach game.

I'm staggered by how many people want to bid on what is effectively a fitless balanced five count, but give them a nice 6-5 and they go back into their shells.

They could well be subsiding in 3♣ unless you prod them again, I would bid 3♥ if I held KQ10xxx, AQ10xx, x, x but with these suits I have a working 9 count with a motheaten main suit.

Do you think they'll be in 5♣ with say:

Axx
xx
KJ
AQxxxx

xx
xxxx
AQxx
Kxx

Without serious prodding for example, the only way they'll bid it is if you bid again.

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-June-15, 15:22, said:

Do you think they'll be in 5♣ with say:

Axx
xx
KJ
AQxxxx

xx
xxxx
AQxx
Kxx

Without serious prodding for example, the only way they'll bid it is if you bid again.

The overcaller has heard a simple raise - whether he bids game is beyond my control, but is rarely aided by a 3♥ bid.

Basically, I expect them to bid game more often than not, which is why all the passes are so misguided - we often need the lead.

Edit miscounted spades.

[inquiry]

cargobeep, on 2013-June-15, 14:57, said:

If my partner didn't bid 3♥ here, I would kick them on the head.

I suspect you are going to run out of partner's fairly quickly.

[bigbenvic]

I'd open this hand 2d wk both majors. would probably go 2d-3c-3h-?-4h assuming the ? isn't >than 4h. In that spot I might try 3nt! North should still bid 4h over that.

That aside I'd double with the south hand as others have stated Ax in partners suit is great holding to have, I have 4-4 in the reds and if partner passes this wont be pretty for them. Of course North then can bid confident of a 9 card fit and would probably take a shot at game with the 6511 shape.

So I'm blaming South (70%) more than North #30%) though I'd bid 3h with the north hand, I'm not selling out to 3c with 11 cards in the majors.