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Kokish Relay over 2C: A Question A Bidding Topic in Kokish Relay over 2C

#1 User is offline   kellonius 

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Posted 2013-May-29, 13:43

My partner and I have recently started playing the Kokish relay over a strong 2C open. One problem we have had with this sequence is that opener has to go to the three level to define a one-suiter:

2C - 2D (waiting)
2H (puppet to 2S) - 2S
3H (one-suiter, H)

I was wondering if folks have thoughts on a response structure from here. One problem we recently had in a club game is that responder might have a heart acceptance with some values, and has no ability to differentiate it from a dead minimum heart acceptance:

87 AK65432 AK A3 opposite A9542 J109 94 Q42 (slam is 50%)
87 AK65432 AK A3 opposite A9542 987 94 K42 (slam is really good)

In both cases, responder's only call for us seems to be 4H. And then opener really has no call but pass.

I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on a response structure after 3H.
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#2 User is offline   dustinst22 

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Posted 2013-May-29, 15:25

View Postkellonius, on 2013-May-29, 13:43, said:

My partner and I have recently started playing the Kokish relay over a strong 2C open. One problem we have had with this sequence is that opener has to go to the three level to define a one-suiter:

2C - 2D (waiting)
2H (puppet to 2S) - 2S
3H (one-suiter, H)

I was wondering if folks have thoughts on a response structure from here. One problem we recently had in a club game is that responder might have a heart acceptance with some values, and has no ability to differentiate it from a dead minimum heart acceptance:

87 AK65432 AK A3 opposite A9542 J109 94 Q42 (slam is 50%)
87 AK65432 AK A3 opposite A9542 987 94 K42 (slam is really good)

In both cases, responder's only call for us seems to be 4H. And then opener really has no call but pass.

I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on a response structure after 3H.


in this sequence, isnt 3H setting trumps and asking for a cue bid? So I think responder shld cue spades. Opener can then bid 3NT to probe for help in a minor if needed.

However, what would this sequence show (playing Kokish):

2C - 2D ; 3H

In any case, I think this question has more to do with hand evaluation than anything, and it seems responder didn't evaluate his hand very well if he bid 4H on both of these.
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#3 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2013-May-29, 15:37

I don't know much about Kokish, but 3H in the above sequence is supposed to be a self-sufficient suit; Responder may pass with a bust.

However, I assume 3S/4C/4D by Responder would be an Advance Ctrl-cue for .
Don Stenmark
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#4 User is offline   dustinst22 

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Posted 2013-May-29, 15:38

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-May-29, 15:37, said:

I don't know much about Kokish, but 3H in the above sequence is supposed to be a self-sufficient suit; Responder may pass with a bust.

However, I assume 3S/4C/4D by Responder would be an Advance Ctrl-cue for .



Agree, reason I ask is whether or not this is how the bidding should have began with AK7th
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#5 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2013-May-29, 15:40

View Postdustinst22, on 2013-May-29, 15:25, said:


However, what would this sequence show (playing Kokish):

2C - 2D ; 3H

3H-jump ( or 3S-jump ) = GF, self-sufficient suit, demanding Ctrl-cues .
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#6 User is offline   jeffford76 

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Posted 2013-May-29, 15:42

We switch the meanings of 3 and 3 after 2 - 2 - 2 - 2. Then 3 shows a single suiter in hearts, with 3 still available as a double negative, and 3 shows hearts and clubs. It does mean it's a bad idea to open 2 with a heart/club two-suiter unless you have game forcing values, but we don't particularly like opening 2-suiters with 2 anyway.
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#7 User is offline   trevahound 

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Posted 2013-May-29, 21:29

My "solution" bothers everyone but me. I just play the 2nt rebid as unlimited and forcing (as a regular partner says, "because playing in 2nt on 22 opposite 0 is for suckers"), and have no need for the relays. I'd play what Jeff plays (and Jeff would lose a bet to hear me say that) if I was playing Kokish. Cheers.

Brian Zaugg
"I suggest a chapter on "strongest dummy opposite my free bids." For example, someone might wonder how I once put this hand down as dummy in a spade contract: AQ10xxx void AKQxx KQ. Did I start with Michaels? Did I cuebid until partner was forced to pick one of my suits? No, I was just playing with Brian (6S made when the trump king dropped singleton)." David Wright
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#8 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2013-May-30, 03:23

Two random thoughts:

- after 2-2-2, I think responder shouldn't automatically bid 2. With a decent hand with three hearts he can show that immediately, maybe by bidding 2NT. OK, it may wrongside 3NT when opener has the balanced 25 count so maybe it isn't worth it.

- after 2-2-(2-2)-3, use 3NT as a slamish heart raise. Or you may invert this 3NT with the natural 4.
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#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2013-May-31, 01:04

View Posthelene_t, on 2013-May-30, 03:23, said:

- after 2-2-2, I think responder shouldn't automatically bid 2. With a decent hand with three hearts he can show that immediately, maybe by bidding 2NT. OK, it may wrongside 3NT when opener has the balanced 25 count so maybe it isn't worth it.

Another problem with that is that it messes up your fit-finding sequences when opener has the balanced hand. Instead, you could play that with three hearts and some values responder makes his normal response to 2NT. For example
2-2;2-3 = Stayman, promising three hearts
2-2;2-3 = five hearts
2-2;2-3 = five spades and three hearts

In each sequence you'd have to agree what opener does when he has hearts. In reply to Stayman, for example, he makes his normal response with the balanced hand, and does something at the four-level when he has hearts.

I've never played this, so I don't know how well it works.
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#10 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2013-May-31, 10:18

View Postgnasher, on 2013-May-31, 01:04, said:

Another problem with that is that it messes up your fit-finding sequences when opener has the balanced hand. Instead, you could play that with three hearts and some values responder makes his normal response to 2NT. For example
2-2;2-3 = Stayman, promising three hearts
2-2;2-3 = five hearts
2-2;2-3 = five spades and three hearts

In each sequence you'd have to agree what opener does when he has hearts. In reply to Stayman, for example, he makes his normal response with the balanced hand, and does something at the four-level when he has hearts.

I've never played this, so I don't know how well it works.


I've spent some time on this, as well as expanding other calls after 2 - 2 - 2 (and (2....3x)). It seems like its a good idea in practice to NOT accept the relay when responder has at least three hearts. That way, when responder takes preference to hearts after say...2 - 3 (hearts, single suiter) - 3, it denies primary heart support since responder didn't break the relay on the prior round.

Responder 'expects' the 24+ hand for 2, and the auction gets a little funky after

2 - 2
2 - 3 (transfer)
?

When opener actually has HEARTS!!!!
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#11 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2013-May-31, 13:07

View PostPhil, on 2013-May-31, 10:18, said:

I've spent some time on this, as well as expanding other calls after 2 - 2 - 2 (and (2....3x)). It seems like its a good idea in practice to NOT accept the relay when responder has at least three hearts. That way, when responder takes preference to hearts after say...2 - 3 (hearts, single suiter) - 3, it denies primary heart support since responder didn't break the relay on the prior round.

Responder 'expects' the 24+ hand for 2, and the auction gets a little funky after

2 - 2
2 - 3 (transfer)
?

When opener actually has HEARTS!!!!


A popular method in many parts of Europe is to reverse the 2n opening and 2c..2n sequence. In theory, this lets you get out in 2M opposite the (19)20-21 (responder can just bid 2M over 2c, to play opposite the balanced hand). It would be nice to combine this with transfers as well as Kokish though, so one scheme is to play
2-2 either waiting or 5+hearts
2-2 5+spades

over 2, opener bids 2n with 24-25 bal, and 2 with either 20-21 balanced or 5+hearts, i.e. Kokish, and you can continue from there with responder already having denied 5+.

In theory this means you play 2 when you have 10 or 11 hearts between the two hands and responder doesn't have enough to force to game opposite 20-21 balanced. I keep waiting for this to happen when I'm playing against these pairs, but I think I rate to be waiting a very long time. It's rare enough a priori, and the opponents rate to be in the auction anyway.
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#12 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2013-May-31, 13:19

View Postkarlson, on 2013-May-31, 13:07, said:


In theory this means you play 2 when you have 10 or 11 hearts between the two hands and responder doesn't have enough to force to game opposite 20-21 balanced. I keep waiting for this to happen when I'm playing against these pairs, but I think I rate to be waiting a very long time. It's rare enough a priori, and the opponents rate to be in the auction anyway.

Whatever the merits of this method may be (and it appears worth considering), I don't know about the opponents getting into this auction if one player has 20-21 HCP, even when there is a 10+ card heart fit.
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#13 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2013-May-31, 18:15

View Postkarlson, on 2013-May-31, 13:07, said:

A popular method in many parts of Europe is to reverse the 2n opening and 2c..2n sequence. In theory, this lets you get out in 2M opposite the (19)20-21 (responder can just bid 2M over 2c, to play opposite the balanced hand). It would be nice to combine this with transfers as well as Kokish though, so one scheme is to play
2-2 either waiting or 5+hearts
2-2 5+spades



I play this (2N = 22-23 and 2 - 2 - 2N is 20-21) in one partnership, along with GF Jacoby transfers. Welland / Auken also play something like this. You can play 2 - 2 - 2N is 24+ as 'reverse' Kokish, and the slow sequence as th 20-21 hand. This allows you to play 2 - 2 as either a bust hand with hearts over a 20-21 hand (responder passes 2, or the route to 2N when responder follows up with 2. Others have written on here that its just as straightforward to play 2M by responder as a weak hand with that major, assuming a 20-21 opener which 2 will be most of the time.

its all very bulky, and its the type of method that needs to be practiced a lot since it isn't very common, and the scope for error is high, as is unfamiliarity in competitive auctions.
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#14 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2013-June-01, 04:31

I can't see any problem with Kokish, and making an obligatory 2 bid over 2, even if you have potential heart support. No need for relays at this point, just let opener bid 2NT (if that was his hand) then normal system on at this point. What IS needed, is a method of continuation after opener rebids 3.

This must be game forcing, and must be single suited. Opener is specifying hearts as trumps. It will have a minimum of 6 cards. To my mind, the simplest thing to do is treat it just the same as you would in your 2/1 sequence when it goes something like 1 2 2 3. Hearts has been agreed at the 3 level in a game forcing situation. Just do what you would normally do there.

For me it is "non serious 3NT" or serious cue bid.

In the context of a 2 open and an unspecified "waiting" 2, non-serious 3NT shows no controls, and if you have a control you bid the cheapest. How you bid controls is whatever you normally do. Playing simply, 3NT is "non-serious" (no controls) and your first hand you bid 3 as your cheapest (only) control. Opener can then bid 3NT, and with nothing else to say you bid 4. The rest is up to partner. With your second hand you start 3 and then over 3NT bid 4 to show a control there as well.

In the context of responding with a initial positive when a negative was available, I play "non-serious" with just one control (opener can cue to find it if he wants), and with 2 controls, bid the cheaper. Partner then knows I have another.

There are different ways to cue bid, of course, but just use your normal methods.
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