[jules101]

A frequent occurrence....


Scenario 1

A card is led, and declarer asks:

"What does that card show/mean?"

We explain our methods - eg "We lead 2nd and 4th, so low from good suit, and 2nd from poor suits".

"Yes, but...." says declarer "So what does that card mean she has?"


Scenario 2

A card is discarded, and declarer asks:

"What does THAT card ask for?"

We explain our methods (in detail), and explain to declarer that s/he must interpret the card accordingly.

"Yes, but...." says declarer "So what does that card mean she has/whats/etc?"

Reply "A low card asks for X, and a high card asks for Y, it's up to you to interpret whether this is high or low, etc etc"

"Yes, but ..." says declarer "Is that a high card or a low card?"

We explain methods again... and find ourselves in Groundhog day.


Perhaps I'm being uncharitable, but it seems to me such persistent questions are designed to get the partner of person on lead/or discarding to interpret the card and thus to "reveal" info about their own hand which is unauthorised to declarer.

Questions to forum:

• Are we correct in to just repeatedly repeat our methods here?
  
  
• Is there a section in Rule Book which deals with this? [I can't locate it]?
  
  
• If not in the Rules then where can one locate guidance about what declarer is/isn't entitled to ask an receive answers too.

Seeking advice on handling this situation. Thanks in anticipation.

[blackshoe]

No, repeating your methods over and over again is pointless. Call the director. It's his job to tell you (and in this case, more importantly, your opponents) what the rules are.

[ahydra]

I'm guessing the legal angle is "asking whether a card is high or low is (nearly) equivalent to asking what other cards in the suit the player holds; the Laws don't say you're allowed to ask what cards someone has in their hand; therefore such a question is not permitted". But do the Laws explicitly say you're not allowed to ask what cards someone's holding, or that one is not obliged to answer such a question? I don't think they do, but may be wrong.

But in any case common sense should dictate you're not obliged to reveal the cards in your hand. You are giving the correct answers; if they don't listen, then like blackshoe says, call the TD.

ahydra

[paulg]

If you don't think that the club's directors cope with this well, then you need to speak to the club management.

[jules101]

Can Ahydra help me find the relevant section in the Rule book.


Calling director is good idea, but the cheif and persistent offender is the TD (a club director who directs twice a week).

I am, therefore, trying to find a strategy to deal with him.

I've suggested on many occasions he's not entitled to ask these questions so why does he keep doing it. Answer "Because it's fun", and then he asks again, and again.

We don't divulge info in answer to requests. I suspect, however, everyone else in the room divulges the answers to his questions because if the director is asking then surely he is entitled to ask, etc etc. [Then other players in turn believe they are entitled to ask such questions, and on and on, and on we go!]


Strategies are welcome.


PS Some might say a pox on all your houses, and and go play elsewhere. That's easy to say, but if playing options are limited one has to try and cope with whatever is on offer I'm afraid.

A good idea to speak with club management as PaulG suggests, but bridge clubs here rely on voluntary TDs however flawed they might be. If someone turns up twice a week, week in, week out, then I'm suspecting "management" are not very interested in "rocking the boat".

[Zelandakh]

"I cannot tell you whether that is meant as a high card or a low card since it depends on what is held in the other hands. I can tell you that a high card means X and a low card means Y." (you might also want to add what they do without a preference and any other special cases)

Or, answering "Is that a high card or a low one?", "I could only answer that by looking at her/his hand."

[billw55]

Yeah, this happens to me once in a while. Generally I will reword my explanation once, twice if feeling charitable. After that I just repeat the exact same words. That clues them in that nothing more is forthcoming.

[ahydra]

This is the best I can find (Law 20F):

At his turn to play from his hand or from dummy
declarer may request an explanation of a defender’s
call or card-play understandings.

It doesn't say you can request anything else (e.g. whether you think the card is high or low). But one might argue it doesn't explicitly prohibit such a question. Suppose you see a sign saying "parking allowed on Mondays". Does that mean you can park there on a Tuesday?

The White Book [20.3] notes that "[the player] is not being asked to say what is in his hand", albeit in reference to bids rather than signals. Perhaps it might be worth adding another section to the White Book to clarify that a player can only be asked to divulge his signalling understandings and never how he would interpret a specific card.

ahydra

[barmar]

There are some pairs that have rules about which spot card ranges constitute "high", "middle", and "low". If that's your agreement, you obviously should disclose it.

But for most players, it just depends on the cards you have available -- a 7 is low if you hold 987, it's high if you hold 75. And I would just explain "it depends on the other cards he has in the suit".

[blackshoe]

The other day somebody asked me "how do you take your partner's bid?" I replied "usually with a grain of salt".

[CSGibson]

I always have a stock reply: "I am not going to interpret partner's signal for you, but I'm happy to disclose our carding agreements, which are..." If they persist, then I explain that I am under no obligation to do anything other than share our agreements, not my interpretation of what partner's card means.

[mycroft]

I always like the looks I get when the 2 is played and when asked, I answer "if it's a high card, it means... if it's low, it means..."

having said that, I had to play the encouraging 3, with the 2 on the board (right-side-up carding) this weekend, because playing the next higher card would concede a trick. So yeah.

Yes, the smartarse answer is "if you tell me which spots you hold, I'll be able to tell you." That usually gets the point across when nothing else will; but it's not legal at the table, under several proprieties Laws.

[paua]

"it depends"
Carding agreements should be taken as guidelines, not a legally binding contract.
If I choose to play fake count then declarer has no recourse.

[barmar]

 paua, on 2013-February-20, 13:04, said:

"it depends"
Carding agreements should be taken as guidelines, not a legally binding contract.
If I choose to play fake count then declarer has no recourse.

The question and answer are regarding your agreements. Whether partner is signalling honestly in a particular case is a separate issue, and not relevant to disclosure.

[bluejak]

 mycroft, on 2013-February-19, 17:09, said:

I always like the looks I get when the 2 is played and when asked, I answer "if it's a high card, it means... if it's low, it means..."

It is, of course, the correct answer, because opponents have a right to know what choices you had.

We play Roman discards: when asked what the ♠6 means I answer "We play that an odd card, especially a small odd card, encourages in the suit, and an even card is Lavinthal between the other two suits".

[jillybean]

 jules101, on 2013-February-18, 21:12, said:

"Yes, but ..." says declarer "Is that a high card or a low card?"

"If you show me your hand I will be able to tell you" usualy works when all else has failed.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 Missing in the explanation is, what does "good" / "bad" suit mean.

#2 You can also add, that a "6" (or whatever) is considered high most of the time, and a card lower
than that is considered low.
The partnership will have a cut off point implicit defined, it will have an agreement, what high
spot card is considered an honor, common is to treat the "10" as honor, but your agreement set may
vary.
If you see 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 on the table, you may also point out, that he may not have a lower one.

On a general note: You not only have the responsibility to explain your methods, you have the
responsibility to explain your methods in such a way, that the person who receives the information
understands your explanation.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[cherdano]

 jules101, on 2013-February-19, 07:22, said:

Calling director is good idea, but the cheif and persistent offender is the TD (a club director who directs twice a week).

I am, therefore, trying to find a strategy to deal with him.

Find a strong player whom the TD trusts and talk to him. (Or someone perceived to be strong.) He will be in a better position to convince the TD.
If there isn't anyone like that, try some humour. "If you can tell me what your spots are, I can tell you whether it's a low card or a high card."

[gwnn]

"If you don't like my answer, call the director. If you don't want to call the director, shut up and keep playing." (phrased slightly more politely if you wish)

edit: aha, the director is actually the guy who's doing this. In that case, you could try to switch clubs?

[blackshoe]

 P_Marlowe, on 2013-February-28, 02:43, said:

common is to treat the "10" as honor

That's good, since the 10 is an honor.