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Multi 2C Strong or weak with spades or diamonds

#1 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2013-February-04, 16:11

Hi!

I read on a homepage (can not remember which one) about an opening of 2C being either standard (strong, typically GF or 22+ bal) or a weak 2 in diamonds or spades. I have played 2C as strong or weak in diamonds, but not including spades in the mix. Does anyone have experience using this convention?

The scheme looks something like this, including weak spade hands in the Kokish relay:

2C;
2D - ART. Non-forcing relay
2H - ART. Forcing relay

2C-2D;
Pass - Weak with diamonds
2H - Strong with hearts OR strong balanced OR weak with spades
...2S - ART. The usual bid
......Pass - Weak with spades
......2NT - Strong and balanced
......3C+ - Strong with hearts, perhaps using transfers to show the side suit
...2NT - ART. Forcing, guessing that partner has spades
2S+ - Natural and strong

2C-2H;
(just a basic structure)
2S - Spades and min
2N - Spades and max
3C - Diamonds and min
3D - Diamonds and max
Other - Strong and natural

I think it would work okay undisturbed, but when the opponents interfere it may be hard. I don't know if its harder than over regular 2D multi, but still.


Me and a partner plays short club (5542) and usually 2C strong, 2D mini-multi, 2M as 10-13 with 6 card suit and 2NT as 22-24 bal. We quite like the 10-13 openings, but there's a problem when holding 6-4 majors in this range, especially 6 hearts and 4 spades. We're also not quite enjoying the multi. My partner has been talking about wanting to try 2NT as unusual too, and I've been talking about trying Flannery (which would solve the 6-4 majors problem when using 2M 10-13). Here's a structure I'm thinking about suggesting:

2C: any GF OR 20+ bal (22-24 goes via Kokish) OR weak two in diamonds OR weak two in spades
2D: 11-16, 5+ hearts and 4 spades (Flannery)
2H: 10-13 with 6 hearts
2S: 10-13 with 6 spades (6-4 opens 1S and rebids hearts)
2NT: 5-5 minors

Compared to our current structure we lose the weak two in hearts but gains Flannery, Unusual and the weak two in diamonds. The Unusual and weak two in diamonds could be solved in the current structure though with minor modifications.
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#2 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2013-February-04, 16:27

I played something like this, described here:

http://www.bridgemat...om/weakstng.htm

The 2NT opening (natural or weak in one of the rounded) was more fun.
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#3 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2013-February-04, 17:52

Yeah, I play basically Glenn's proposed 2C method, some observations. We play 2C-2H is a super negative, and our responder invitational hands start 2C-2NT. This lacks grace and your responses are by necessity cramped, I do like your idea of a 2H relay. Definitely define what you do with strong hands after the relay - this has happened to us a couple of times and it can be tough to find a slam when you're starting exploration at 3NT. There is probably a case for making 3C and 3H strong/weak bids, but I haven't really thought about.

As for the two level prempts, we play 2C as described, 2D as diamonds + a major assumed fit style, 2H as both majors assumed fit style and 2S as a preempt in a minor suit or a good 3M preempt, 3C as both minors and 3D as 6 diamonds 4 majors exactly.

The 2C bid is very effective - while similar bids are fairly routine, it is always slippery to defend against unanchored pre-empts. Opponents are much less likely to pre-empt you I find too, but you get most of those benefits just playing 2C: Strong or Diamonds.

I am unsatisfied with the 2D bid, we are thinking of changing to Wilkoz or playing it diamonds and hearts or something.
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#4 User is offline   Hilver 

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Posted 2013-February-05, 03:51

Isn't this a Brown Sticker Convention?

Brown sticker is a category of contract bridge conventional agreements defined by the World Bridge Federation (WBF).

Brown sticker conventions are considered, by some, to be difficult to defend against, and thus are only permitted at the highest levels of tournament play in most locations. Only highly unusual methods (HUMs) have a higher classification.

The official definition can be found on the WBF website.[1]

A short summary would be that a convention qualifies for a brown sticker if it fulfills any of the following criteria:

1. An opening bid of 2♣ through 3♠ may be weak and does not promise a known suit.
2. An overcall of a natural opening at the one level does not promise 4 cards in a known suit.
3. A weak two-suited bid where one of the suits by definition may be only 3 cards or shorter.
It is used for protection of psychic bids, or systemically required psyches.
Notable exceptions are the Multi 2 diamonds (due to its popularity), a natural 1NT overcall, and cue bids on strong hands to force partner.

The bottom line is, that if a bid is weak (or potentially weak having multiple options) and does not promise 4 cards in a defined suit (when weak) then it is likely to have a brown sticker.


Jan
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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2013-February-05, 04:02

yes its a brown sticker but you can stil play it in many places. In EBU it would be OK at level IV.
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#6 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2013-February-05, 04:44

Its legal at all levels in Sweden (where I live and play), but I've never seen anyone use it. The exception would be if a club has local rules only allowing certain systems (for instance beginner evenings) or if the rest of the opening bids makes the system to "wierd". Each opening bid is given a value, based on how hard it is to defend, and the system's total value may not exceed a fixed number. At the lowest level this fixed number is 7, and this bid has a value of 3. Here's some other popular bids and their point values (for the interested):

Standard American 1C/1D openings: 1 point each, due to the fact that it only promises 3 cards in the suit bid.

Precision: 1C gets 0 points (strong openings never get points), but 1D gets 3 points since it may be less than 3 cards, even when unbalanced. 2D gets 1 point since it doesn't promise length in diamonds but 4+ cards in another suit (clubs).

Short club: 1C gets 2 points if 2+ (natural or balanced) and 3 points if 1+.

Multi (doesn't matter if 2C, 2D or 2H): 3 points, it doesn't show length in the suit bid nor length in another suit.

Swedish Club / Polish club: 3 points for these 1C openings, since the bid does not promise length in the suit bid and isn't strong.

MOSCITO: 1D, 1H and 1S gets 1 point each. They do not promise length in the suit bid, but 4+ cards in another suit.

An Unassuming Club / Fantunes 1C: 1C gets 1 point since its either strong (15+) or natural (4+ clubs)

Flannery / Ekren 2D / Unusual 2NT / Verdi: 1 point each, for the same reason as MOSCITO, Precision 2D etc.

2NT as something wierd: 2 points, this is the max for 2NT (for instance 2NT as 5-5 in two unknown suits)

Ferts: These are "expensive" if at the 1-level. 1C is 3 points, 1D is 5 points and 1M is 7 points.

Weak bids: There's no difference if the bid is weak or strong, if not a fert.

Muiderberg: 0 points, considered natural since it shows 4+ cards in the suit bid.

2C as strong or diamonds: A bid which is either strong or shows 4+ cards in a specified suit (other than the suit bid) is 2 points.

Gambling 3NT / Namyats / Icebreaker: 0 points. Bids of 3NT or higher is always 0 points.

Forcing pass: 0 points, but the answers to the pass gets points as if they where opening bids unless the pass always is strong (15+).
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#7 User is offline   GaryFisch 

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Posted 2017-March-17, 19:57

What about 2 as possibly, not weak, but 12+ with a long suit (7+)? Would that be "brown sticker?" I don't play tourneys, so never heard of that. I would have at least an outside A or K as well. Eg, xx, Kxx, x, AKQxxxx. 10-11 and I'd open 1. 5-9, 3. The idea is to take away the 1 level AND the weak 2 from opponents to hinder their stealing the hand. What would you do with that hand, for example, if you open 1, and the bidding goes 1-pass-3? Do you compete to 4, hoping partner can raise you to 5? I'd probably pass there hoping opponents don't go to 4!

Of course 2 COULD also be strong. The distinction would be made by the subsequent bidding. If opponents bid strongly, then the bid was a long-suit opening. If they pass, then opener will jump to the 4 level in the long suit on the next bid (this gives up the splinter if the response is positive). If opener makes a non jump bid at the 2nd round with no interference, opener shows a normal strong 2 hand.

I just recently thought of this and haven't fleshed it out, but I'm thinking responder bids 2 with anything less than an opening bid and no interference, 2 or 3 in a suit with an opening bid and 6 cards, or 2NT with an opener with no 6 card suit. If there is an overcall, responder passes except with an opening bid hand. If opponents bid to the 3 or 4 level, opener would simply bid game in the long suit with a one-suited 12-17, double with 18+, any shape. Or opener could choose to pass, especially at unfavorable vulnerability.
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#8 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-March-18, 05:25

View PostKungsgeten, on 2013-February-04, 16:11, said:

Me and a partner plays short club (5542) and usually 2C strong, 2D mini-multi, 2M as 10-13 with 6 card suit and 2NT as 22-24 bal. We quite like the 10-13 openings, but there's a problem when holding 6-4 majors in this range, especially 6 hearts and 4 spades. We're also not quite enjoying the multi. My partner has been talking about wanting to try 2NT as unusual too, and I've been talking about trying Flannery (which would solve the 6-4 majors problem when using 2M 10-13). Here's a structure I'm thinking about suggesting:

2C: any GF OR 20+ bal (22-24 goes via Kokish) OR weak two in diamonds OR weak two in spades
2D: 11-16, 5+ hearts and 4 spades (Flannery)
2H: 10-13 with 6 hearts
2S: 10-13 with 6 spades (6-4 opens 1S and rebids hearts)
2NT: 5-5 minors

Compared to our current structure we lose the weak two in hearts but gains Flannery, Unusual and the weak two in diamonds. The Unusual and weak two in diamonds could be solved in the current structure though with minor modifications.

Your 2, 2 and 2 openings are common ways to solve problems associated with a natural rebid structure. I don't seem to have these problems (or new ones worth mentioning) in my artificial structure over 1M("standard")-1/1N.

View PostHilver, on 2013-February-05, 03:51, said:

Isn't this a Brown Sticker Convention?

Yes, even though, paradoxically,

* a 2 opening showing either a Weak 2 or a strong hand is not a brown sticker;
* a 2 opening showing either a Weak 2, a Weak 2 or a strong hand is not a brown sticker.

But a 2 opening showing either a Weak 2, at least a king above average strength (i.e. 13+ Milton Work) with 6+ S or a strong hand would not be a brown sticker. So how about

1 = standard, but not "13-15", 6+ S
2 = a) Weak 2 b) "13-15", 6+ S c) strong
2 = Weak Two

? Then

1-1N; 2 = "10-12", 6+ S
2-2; 2 = "13-15", 6+ S / Kokish.

View PostGaryFisch, on 2017-March-17, 19:57, said:

What about 2 as possibly, not weak, but 12+ with a long suit (7+)? Would that be "brown sticker?"

No 2-level or higher opening promising 10+ Milton Work points can be a brown sticker.
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#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-March-18, 08:58

View PostKungsgeten, on 2013-February-05, 04:44, said:

Its legal at all levels in Sweden (where I live and play), but I've never seen anyone use it. The exception would be if a club has local rules only allowing certain systems (for instance beginner evenings) or if the rest of the opening bids makes the system to "wierd". Each opening bid is given a value, based on how hard it is to defend, and the system's total value may not exceed a fixed number. At the lowest level this fixed number is 7, and this bid has a value of 3. Here's some other popular bids and their point values (for the interested):

Standard American 1C/1D openings: 1 point each, due to the fact that it only promises 3 cards in the suit bid.

Precision: 1C gets 0 points (strong openings never get points), but 1D gets 3 points since it may be less than 3 cards, even when unbalanced. 2D gets 1 point since it doesn't promise length in diamonds but 4+ cards in another suit (clubs).

Short club: 1C gets 2 points if 2+ (natural or balanced) and 3 points if 1+.

Multi (doesn't matter if 2C, 2D or 2H): 3 points, it doesn't show length in the suit bid nor length in another suit.

Swedish Club / Polish club: 3 points for these 1C openings, since the bid does not promise length in the suit bid and isn't strong.

MOSCITO: 1D, 1H and 1S gets 1 point each. They do not promise length in the suit bid, but 4+ cards in another suit.

An Unassuming Club / Fantunes 1C: 1C gets 1 point since its either strong (15+) or natural (4+ clubs)

Flannery / Ekren 2D / Unusual 2NT / Verdi: 1 point each, for the same reason as MOSCITO, Precision 2D etc.

2NT as something wierd: 2 points, this is the max for 2NT (for instance 2NT as 5-5 in two unknown suits)

Ferts: These are "expensive" if at the 1-level. 1C is 3 points, 1D is 5 points and 1M is 7 points.

Weak bids: There's no difference if the bid is weak or strong, if not a fert.

Muiderberg: 0 points, considered natural since it shows 4+ cards in the suit bid.

2C as strong or diamonds: A bid which is either strong or shows 4+ cards in a specified suit (other than the suit bid) is 2 points.

Gambling 3NT / Namyats / Icebreaker: 0 points. Bids of 3NT or higher is always 0 points.

Forcing pass: 0 points, but the answers to the pass gets points as if they where opening bids unless the pass always is strong (15+).


This is a super-complicated system. Does it apply at clubs -- I can't imagine a middling club player to get their heads round this. Is a handout given at the start of every club or tournament session?
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#10 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2017-March-19, 15:26

I think it sounds a good idea, it's probably not to difficult to work out the "wierdness total" of your own methods. I prefer this approach to one that says "thou cannot play transfer responses to a balanced club" even if the rest of your methods are vanilla - especially if the authority does allow transfer responses to a balanced 1NT.

As for the middling club player, you can't expect him to understand anything. He will soon be told if his methods are not allowed, but of course they would be.
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#11 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2017-April-24, 04:17

View PostVampyr, on 2017-March-18, 08:58, said:

This is a super-complicated system. Does it apply at clubs -- I can't imagine a middling club player to get their heads round this. Is a handout given at the start of every club or tournament session?


Yes, it usually apply at clubs. It is unusual to have a system which isn't legal though, and if you have one of those systems you're probably aware of the rules (so middling club players do not really need to worry). Also a club is free to make up their own rules if they wish to do so (but few do). Most pairs aren't interested in experimenting with lots of artificial opening bids, and those who are probably read the rules. I have, however, encountered several unlegal systems and they usually involve transfer preempts or other kind of special bids between 2NT and 3NT. The most common unlegal system I've met is probably this:

1C = Strong
1D = Nebulous, could be singleton diamond.
1M/1NT/2C = Natural
2D = Multi
2M = Something semi-natural
2NT = Majors or minors, or perhaps a preempt in a minor, or some other vague preemptive meaning

1D and 2D are 3 dots each, so you only have 1 dot left. But since they are playing strong club and multi, many want to use 2NT as something artificial. 5-5 minors would be okay, but when you do not have an anchor suit for the 2NT bid it gets 2 dots, and then you have too many. I've also seen examples such as:

Everything up to 2NT = Standard American
3C = Diamonds
3D = Hearts
3H = Spades
3S = Gambling
3NT = 25-27

This also get too many dots (1 each for 1C, 1D, 3C, 3D and 3H, and 3 for 3S).

I agree that the rules are a bit complicated, but I like them :)
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#12 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-April-24, 07:22

View PostKungsgeten, on 2017-April-24, 04:17, said:

Yes, it usually apply at clubs. It is unusual to have a system which isn't legal though, and if you have one of those systems you're probably aware of the rules (so middling club players do not really need to worry).


They do though, if they want to know whether an illegal system is being played against them, for instance your examples.
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#13 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2017-April-28, 13:20

I think in that case, a simple "Director, they're playing this. Are we good?" is all they need to know, along with a vague idea of how kooky it can be before there are potential issues.

Note: maybe an easier way to see it is take all the rules (as opposed to the fluff and the examples) from Erik Sjöstrand's description (first list on page 2 for general rules, first list on page 3 for dot caps).
Spoiler

However, that's still pretty complicated. I also feel that it's a little uncomfortable that overcalls are totally unregulated (except against an artificial pass, where they may be "openings", depending on the meaning of the artificial Pass). One would want to see whether, in practise rather than theory, that concern is real (I know that in our regular partnership, it's our unusual overcalls that cause the most issue as our openings are pretty straight K/S (two dots). I imagine someone coming in with full Overcall Structure would be in for even more side-eye).

As opposed to EBU level 4, for instance, which is clearly simple, without exceptions and it is immediately obvious to random Benji Acol player if someone is playing beyond the rules.

As opposed to the GCC, which is perfect, of course.
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#14 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2017-April-28, 14:04

What kind of overcalls do you play mycroft? Also I'm Erik Sjöstrand, so that's my article (in case someone were interested) :)
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#15 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2017-April-28, 15:10

Hmm. Oh. Umm...[/embarrass] Did I at least distill the legal correctly?

Mostly standard, with Power Doubles and 1NT-wide-ranging-takeout (but not as wide-ranging as full OS!) That's usually enough to get a resigned "so, what's *that*?" from the opponents. At least they know that a) we'll give a complete and correct explanation, and b) we either know the system well enough that we're not keeping each other on-message if they ask, or we will tell them explicitly if we're on shaky ground, and are more likely to call the TD after for their protection than they are.

Of course, when we play EHAA, we play EHAA overcalls. Also, of course, more resigned "so, what's *that*?" ensues.

Also, question I had from the description. If I play 7-9 balanced 1NT openings (say, in a 13+ 1, 8-12 otherwise type of system) - that's zero dots because it's natural? I only get the "extra dots" if I get dots for the call in the first place?
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#16 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2017-April-28, 15:39

For amusement value, our "mildly illegal" system (if the GCC were "openings only" and we were willing to guarantee 10+ on a couple of calls, it would be legal there, too):

1 - the doozy. Three full dots; usually short and unbalanced.
2 - One dot (promises a 4+major; two in fact).
2NT - One dot (promises a 4+minor; again...) (actually, I have to check with my partner, whether that shows minors or reds. It's not like this is written down or anything...)
Everything else is natural (although possibly <8;) except 4m NAMYATS.

Okay, so it's pushing the bounds of legality against the novices there...

[Any guesses as to what it is? No fair looking at my history, but I guess what you can remember of my posts is AI...]

[Now that I think of it, if we're playing the modern version, it goes down to four dots. Before I play it again, I'll have to agree "traditional" or "current".]
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#17 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2017-April-29, 01:26

Yes a balanced 1NT or 2NT opening is zero dots, regardless of strength, since it is a natural bid.

Regarding the three opening bids you posted:

- 1 would be three dots, yes.
- Regarding 2 I'm not sure. Does it promise a specific four card major? If not, and if it doesn't say anything about clubs, it is three dots too. If it shows both majors, it is one dot (since it always show at least one specific suit). If it shows clubs and a four card major, it is zero dots.
- 2NT is 1 dot if it promises both minors, or 1 dot if it shows a specific four+ minor (like 2 above), but if it could be any four+ minor then it is 2 dots (2NT can't get more than 2 dots).
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#18 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-August-06, 07:13

Instead of standard Multi 2, i.e.

2 = Weak 2 or strong*,

or glen's Wicked 2, i.e.

2 = Weak 2 or Weak 2 or strong**,

has any of you tried

2 = Weak 2 or strong*?

* not a BSC
** a BSC
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