[kreivi68]

straube, on 2013-February-01, 09:04, said:

I think the meaning of welcoming someone is saying "I'm glad you came. Feel comfortable here." When mgoetze welcomed the new poster and immediately followed with several sentences regarding the inappropriate placement of the post, it does not come across as welcoming.

+1 for Straube. As a newcomer I feel this kind of welcoming downgrading. I've had my share already.
You should support people to make posts, otherwise these forums are just for insiders. Sometimes
posts are stupid, I know. But still, you need people to participate to keep discussion alive.
Totally f***d up posts lead sometimes very important and valuable conversations. And if you don't
like them - just ignore, like Fluffy said.

Cheers, T.

[Mbodell]

I get surprised how much people care about which forums things are in. While I must admit I'm not really consistent with this, in that I think carefully about where I put some of my threads, when I read the forums I use the "View New Content" link and get new content across all the forums. I'll sometimes note what thread something is in to see if I check out a topic of marginal interest by title, but by in large I'm going to read it in nearly any forum (and the title is much more important than the forum, as is who started the thread and who made the last post, as is if I've posted in the thread or not [because it means the thread was interesting to me at one time]). But when I catch up on messages I open the 5-50 threads I'm reading to catch up and work my way through them chronologically.

[Elianna]

I re-read the thread Mgoetze linked to about changes. I had some reactions:
1) Wow, I used to post more, but my typing/spelling was atrocious. I had to read one sentence twice to figure out what words I was trying to say.
2) I really liked what Barmar posted: "In the specific case of the Advanced versus B/I forums, we need to be very careful. If someone posts in the Advanced forum, and you claim it doesn't belong there, you're effectively insulting the poster's bridge expertise. This is very different from saying that a bridge-related question belongs in the General Bridge forum rather than Water Cooler, or that a BBO question belongs in the BBO Support Forum rather than General Bridge."

I think that it is very nice of Mgoetze to greet people.

I think that he was correct to flag a post (not that I've seen the post, as I really only read the water cooler semi-regularly), but I do think that it is rude for people to PUBLICLY comment on a post being in the wrong forum. It could lead to embarrassment, especially if the person is not a moderator. I think that we should let people have a few posts under their belt before we expect them to have coping mechanisms with our rudeness.

I do think that non-mod could handle things by saying "you may get better/more responses if you post in XYZ forum" and that would be fine, and that would be a good way to avoid implying something about the poster's ability-level.

I also don't understand:

Quote

Quote

... I think MGoetze does people a service when he addresses a new poster by welcoming them, and then politely & publicly giving them guidance on appropriate forum behavior. That post is a warning - not to the new poster so much, as to the old establishment. It tells them not to rip this guy to shreds because 1) he's new and 2) its been dealt with.

Good point, you are right. I thought dealing with it privately was better, but now I see why it is not such a good idea.

I think that people should be able to tell that he's new, and shouldn't rip someone to shreds in general. I'd rather see 20 people reporting the thread as being in the wrong place, and choosing not to respond until it gets moved, then see 20 people excoriating the person.

[JLOGIC]

My honest opinion, and I like both mgoetze and straube so hopefully I don't offend either...

Straube was a little pissed that mgoetze implied that he was not an expert and suggested moving his thread in a way that came off ambiguous but possibly condescending and rude. More importantly, straube did not feel that mgoetze had the bridge expertise to say that his question was not worthy of exp forum.

Straube then overreacted when he saw the mgoetze post to the new poster.

IMO mgoetze was not rude to the new poster. However, mgoetze was probably out of line with straube, and it is human nature to overreact in that spot if two people are both pretty good since they're going to assume they're better than th other one. Another way to look at it is mgoetze probably had the authority and knowledge to say what he did to the new poster with the simple question, but less so with a guy like straube who is a veteran here and certainly competent at bridge (I am using vague wording since I have never played vs either so I don't know how good they actually are, no deeper meaning)

Anyways I'd just say mgoetze be careful overstepping your bounds if you say you're not an expert, you will piss people off if you judge their posts as non expert if it is at all close since you're not one. With a forum vet and good poster just give them the benefit of the doubt.

And straube, just let these things go, whatever, you might be right but ego is what makes it a big deal. Mgoetze is one of the best at handling forum newts I think you just misplaced your anger on that one. Just my opinion.

[gnasher]

I don't like it when someone with no official standing tells someone else what to do, even if they are polite about it. We have moderators whose job it is to deal with posts which are inappropriate or in the wrong place. If you think that the moderators aren't doing this well enough, it's appropriate to talk to them or to the management about it, but I don't think it's right to usurp their role.

Another reason not to do it is that it's a very subjective area. I disagree with about one third of the "wrong forum" posts I see.

[billw55]

It can be reasonably argued that it is rude to suggest a different subforum to new posters. Personally, I think that it is fine if done politely. If I was new at a forum, I certainly wouldn't mind. Apparently others are more sensitive - I seem to have offended WesleyC in the thread about responding to a 2NT opening.

I would point out though, that one definitely does not have to be an expert oneself to correctly and confidently identify some material as non-expert level.

[paua]

I think you all need to get out more.

[straube]

JLOGIC, on 2013-February-02, 01:47, said:

My honest opinion, and I like both mgoetze and straube so hopefully I don't offend either...

Straube was a little pissed that mgoetze implied that he was not an expert and suggested moving his thread in a way that came off ambiguous but possibly condescending and rude. More importantly, straube did not feel that mgoetze had the bridge expertise to say that his question was not worthy of exp forum.

Straube then overreacted when he saw the mgoetze post to the new poster.

IMO mgoetze was not rude to the new poster. However, mgoetze was probably out of line with straube, and it is human nature to overreact in that spot if two people are both pretty good since they're going to assume they're better than th other one. Another way to look at it is mgoetze probably had the authority and knowledge to say what he did to the new poster with the simple question, but less so with a guy like straube who is a veteran here and certainly competent at bridge (I am using vague wording since I have never played vs either so I don't know how good they actually are, no deeper meaning)

Anyways I'd just say mgoetze be careful overstepping your bounds if you say you're not an expert, you will piss people off if you judge their posts as non expert if it is at all close since you're not one. With a forum vet and good poster just give them the benefit of the doubt.

And straube, just let these things go, whatever, you might be right but ego is what makes it a big deal. Mgoetze is one of the best at handling forum newts I think you just misplaced your anger on that one. Just my opinion.

I appreciate that you are trying to be fair. It may be harder for you to be in my shoes because I doubt very many of your threads have been challenged like this. I don't take offense from what you said and hope you don't if I say that I think Eliana was more spot on. I'm going to borrow her quote from barmar...

Quote

In the specific case of the Advanced versus B/I forums, we need to be very careful. If someone posts in the Advanced forum, and you claim it doesn't belong there, you're effectively insulting the poster's bridge expertise. This is very different from saying that a bridge-related question belongs in the General Bridge forum rather than Water Cooler, or that a BBO question belongs in the BBO Support Forum rather than General Bridge.

This is how I felt. I certainly have no reason to think that I'm a better player than mgoetze. I would guess the opposite but I have no way of knowing. However, I don't think anyone likes to be insulted. When he offered his opinion that my thread didn't belong in the expert forum it was hard not to take this as an insinuation that "you are not an expert". It doesn't matter if I don't think I'm an expert...I don't invite other people to tell me this. Notice that he later came right out and said that he didn't think I was an expert in such a way that he obviously enjoyed himself, even though I didn't ask him for that opinion nor had I claimed to be an expert. So I think the insinuation was there all along.

I don't like this practice of publicly challenging the expert-worthiness of this or that post. I think it ought to change. I'm a little disturbed reading how mgoetze is much more polite than others and that he might be saving folks from being ripped apart otherwise. To my way of thinking, this doesn't say much for some of the other posters there.

I did actually let mgoetze response to my thread go at the time. I didn't say anything and I didn't react when the thread was moved to A/I without my being informed. However, I felt bad about it. When I saw his response to the support double thread, I saw this as a pattern and certainly included my own experience with my criticism. I felt that this was a very non-welcoming way to welcome someone into the forums. I understand some feel he was polite and others agree with me. I also wondered why someone who arguably had announced that he wasn't an expert was offering these opinions. I think my question to him as to his role on the threads and whether he were an expert were fair. It's easier to take a question about the appropriateness of a post from someone in authority (the moderator). At least let them be knowledgeable (an expert).

I'm sure it's difficult to keep the expert forum up-to-level, but what cost to others are folks really willing to inflict to keep up the standards? Is it really so important as to risk hurt feelings of advanced and other players who may occasionally post a question that they feel is suitable? Or newbies who don't understand what it's all about? If you let slip an occasional marginal thread, I don't see it as that detrimental.

If you (plural) think it is so detrimental, I think you need to find a better way of handling these posts. I like what Eliana had to say here. I think it's better to offer polite informative responses or ignore unsuitable posts. One can message the moderator who can decide whether to move the posts, and then send a message to the OP with something like "Good question, but I think you'll get a better response in this or that forum so I've moved your thread".

[barmar]

Mbodell, on 2013-February-01, 20:36, said:

I get surprised how much people care about which forums things are in. While I must admit I'm not really consistent with this, in that I think carefully about where I put some of my threads, when I read the forums I use the "View New Content" link and get new content across all the forums.

Not me. I'm only interested in reading stuff in about 1/3 of all the forums. So I just open the forums I care about, and see the threads with new content at the top of the list. I never use View New Content, since it's full of stuff in forums I don't read -- I'm not interested in searching for the needles I care about in that haystack.

This is why the forum matters -- for people who "subscribe" to forums, they won't see stuff if it's in the wrong one.

[mgoetze]

First of all, to straube, I am not going to bother responding to your accusations that I enjoy putting people down because you seem to be so emotional about it that whatever I say isn't going to convince you anyway.

Meanwhile, it seems that a majority either doesn't care what is in the expert forum or at least doesn't want me to be the person doing anything about it. Fine then, I will stick to reporting posts and not say anything anymore. May you all enjoy many further years of commentary by j*** and his ilk.

[lycier]

As we know there is no perfect system in the world,but for all of us,bbo forum grant us a great chance to study from experts.Honesty is the best policy,I agree mogoetze' opinion due to his kindness.

[lycier]

Maybe megoetze need words carefully so as to avoid misunderstanding ,especially to the newcomer.is it all right?

[Fluffy]

As I am highly active, I don't care people posting on Expert forum things that are of doubteful skill when the forum is inactive. However when it is being active with interesting topics being discussed it acts like spam. If I wasn't that active maybe I would care more.

[aguahombre]

mgoetze, on 2013-February-02, 18:25, said:

May you all enjoy many further years of commentary by j*** and his ilk.

Take that, Justin and Josh