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Deal #1

#1 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 12:34

South opens 1C. No interference. All white

..........K4
..........98763
..........7542
..........AK
T63...................75
A2....................KT4
J86...................QT93
QJ973.................8542
..........AQJ982
..........QJ5
..........AK
..........T6

Outcomes

4S S SCREAM
4S S Meckwell Light
4S S PhilKing
4S S Precision by Atul
4S S Precision by Free
4H N New Big Club
4S N Polish Club
4S S Silent Club
4S S IMPrecision
4S S Relknes
4H S Moscito
4S S OC Precision
4H N dake50
4H N TOSR
4H S Jasmine Club
4S N TOSR (mbodell)

4S S Zelandakh (non-club auction)
Cyberyeti also posted a COG of 3N, 4H, or 4S
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#2 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 12:41

View Poststraube, on 2013-January-11, 12:34, said:

South opens 1C. No interference.

..........K4
..........98763
..........7542
..........AK
T63...................75
A2....................KT4
J86...................QT93
QJ973.................8542
..........AQJ982
..........QJ5
..........AK
..........T6


SCREAM handles this...

1C-1D 15+, 5+ QPS, unbal with major OR bal
1H-1N bal or S, H or H/D
2C-3C ask, 2542
3D-3N ask, 7 QPs
4D-4H puppets, forced
4S.....sign off

Pretty ordinary, but not a bad hand to start if others are interested posting their own auctions...
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#3 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 13:49

Not relaying makes this harder since there are judgement calls. For instance I would start

1C 1H*
1S

1H=8-11 any.

Now north might decide to bid 1N instead of introducing such a bad heart suit. But this potentially wrongsides NT so lets go with

1C 1H
1S 2H

Now, south could rebid spades or raise hearts. This is a similar problem that occurs with 1S p 2H p ? when you are 6-3 with good spades and good hearts. I would argue that since south knows its not a slam hand they should probably bid 2S and then 4H if partner doesn't raise spades, but maybe I am just resulting since I know the full hand?

So probably

1C 1H
1S 2H
2S 3S

Now maybe 4H should show 6-3 and give a choice. It doesn't make that much sense as a serious cuebid, but maybe if I held AKQJxxx AK Qxx Qx I would think differently lol. Probably I would just bid 4S since I would think 4H could be a serious cuebid.

So

1C 1H
1S 2H
2S 3S
4S

but it is easier when I know all the hands. Maybe IRL I would raise hearts, maybe it's even right to do so. It is possible hearts is better opposite 2-5 with 2 small spades, but it is unlikely and seems much more likely spades is better.

I will say it is easy to bid every hand right when you know your partners hand, that is kinda the problem with this format if your system requires judgement calls.

I could easily see something like

1C 1H
1S 2H
3H getting to 4H (or 1C 1H 1S 2H 4H).
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#4 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 14:10

Not resulting will be a challenge. Folks are free to bid hands with their partners and then post and this may remove some subjectivity, but I'm looking for an idealized auction. By idealized, I don't mean optimum outcome, but the system used to best effect..both pards on the same wavelength, etc.

Btw, very glad to have you post. In fact it would be nice to have you as some sort of judge as well as participant, but let's see how things develop.
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#5 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 14:35

Embarrassing simple:

1-1NT
3-4

3 guarantees very sound values (minimum "standard" 3 bid a 3-way 2 and can stop in Two in Gazilliesque fashion). Responder is worth a 4 cue, perhaps, but I actually play it as a long suit try, promising a good suit.
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#6 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 15:31

Let me throw one in for Precision.

1C* - 1H

Playing Gamma, opener may decide to bid 2H:

1C - 1H
2H* - 2S* (5+ trumps, no honor)
4H

Without Gamma, the auction might go:

1C* - 1H
1S - 2D
2H - 4H

Alternatively, if opener decides to rebid spades:

1C* - 1H
1S - 2D
2S - 4S

In both cases, responder will be keen on quickly signing off given the lack of values in the red suits.
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#7 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 15:41

Our MW Precision basically uses the MW opening structure and some of its features. It has complex structures after all openings (1M Garrozzo-style, Italian 2NT structure, MW 1 and 1NT structure), but the 1 opening is kept very Vanilla because we don't play often enough to build a complex structure

This could go various ways. Responder may start with 1 (GF with 5+) or 1NT (balanced, 8-10 or 13-15).

Personally I think North will show a balanced hand, because we can still find out about the 5 card M, and in that case it's never a good suit. After 1-1NT we play our normal 1NT structure (possibly wrongsiding contracts, we know), where invites show very light slam invites (to stay low in case responder has the 13-15 range). We'll obviously end up in 4 after South shows a very light slam invite hand with 6+.

1-1NT (16+ any ; balanced 8-10 or 13-15)
2-2 (transfer 5+ ; accept)
3-3NT (6+ INV or slam interest $/ ; max hand in the range 8-10 or better)
4-pass (very light balanced slam invite ; I don't have 13-15)
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#8 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 16:04

This is an aside, but it was interesting to see that Revision Club has adopted the idea of 1 as a potential GF.

http://www.bridgewit...club_4th_ed.zip

In this case, the auction will go:

1C* - 1D* (16+; various, including GF hands)
1S - 2H (natural, natural GF)
3H - 4H

Richard and Adam haven't posted yet, but I bet that the plurality of auctions on this thread will begin with 1C* - 1D* B-)...
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#9 User is offline   Hilver 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 16:17

View Poststraube, on 2013-January-11, 12:34, said:

South opens 1C. No interference.

..........K4
..........98763
..........7542
..........AK
T63...................75
A2....................KT4
J86...................QT93
QJ973.................8542
..........AQJ982
..........QJ5
..........AK
..........T6


New Big Club (Hilversumse Klaveren http://home.tiscali.nl/hilver/hk.htm )
1 - 1 (relay)
1 - 2 (5+-card, GF)
3 - 4
all pass

Alternatively:
1 - 1 (relay)
1 - 2 (5+-card, GF)
2 - 3
4 - all pass
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 16:22

Very old style precision with simple asking bids

1-1
1(alpha)-2(4+ controls, <Qxx)
2(gamma)-2(no top heart honour)
Take your pick of games, you know partner has 5+ hearts to no more than the 10, the K with maybe one other and the AK, 3N/4/4 all plausible.
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#11 User is offline   antonylee 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 16:59

Polish club:
1-1 (WNT or 15+ s unbal or 18+; 7+)
1-1N (12-17 with 4 or (18-21 5+, not 3 if bal, not 4); signoff opposite WNT)
2-2N (strong variant (2 would unfortunately be a signoff here); natural)
3-3 (natural & implies 6 as a strong 53(32) would have started with 2 over 1 and no 4cm has been shown; natural)
4

(I decided to open 1 instead of 1 even though this is a pretty minimal 1 mostly for the sake of the thread :))
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#12 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2013-January-11, 18:15

View Poststraube, on 2013-January-11, 12:34, said:

South opens 1C. No interference.

..........K4
..........98763
..........7542
..........AK
T63...................75
A2....................KT4
J86...................QT93
QJ973.................8542
..........AQJ982
..........QJ5
..........AK
..........T6

In my Silent Club, this one relays out shape and leaves opener on a guess as to which 4M game to try, once values are insufficient for slam.

1-1 strong; non-GF or various unbalanced GF's with s mostly
1-2N waiting (includes minimum single suiters or min balanced); > unbal GF, no shortness
3-3 relay; 2542
3-3N strength ask; 7 QPs
4-4 terminator; forced
4-P signoff

As South/captain, it seemed safe to ask for values despite my minimum since we were aiming for 4M and not 3N and there was plenty of space. After identifing our total of only 17 QPs, and with no exceptional shape, it seems clear to sign off. While my system doesn't give any indication of suit strength, South is looking at a 6-2 fit with some very nice spades in his hand so I went with that (either way South is going to play 4M and has revealed nothing).
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#13 User is offline   sieong 

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Posted 2013-January-12, 00:09

It would be interesting to see if Adam and I agree on how IMprecision bids these hands. For me, it will go

1 - 1 (strong; DN or bal GF or 7+ AKQ pts)
1 - 1N (4+, forcing; artificial GF)
3 ... (6322 or 7222)

Up to this point, there are no choices to be made. At this point, responder is the captain. Relevant options to me are: 3 ask for shape (follow up by RP), 3 ask for RP directly. Should responder try to find out if a 5-3 heart fit? I suppose if opener has AJxxxx AKQ Ax xx, 6 is just good enough and better than 6, but only barely so. Given that 6-2 generally plays better than 5-3, I will opt for asking for RP directly to gain a step, so the bidding will continue

... 3 (ask for RP)
3 - 4 (9-10 RP; too few RP to slam try, time to sign-off)
4 - 4 (forced; sign-off)

Technically it is superior to have 4 as sign-off there, but we have not optimized the system in that respect (yet, and perhaps never will). I would like to be in 3NT, but I don't see how to get there confidently.
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#14 User is offline   relknes 

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Posted 2013-January-12, 05:54

View Poststraube, on 2013-January-11, 12:34, said:

South opens 1C. No interference.

..........K4
..........98763
..........7542
..........AK
T63...................75
A2....................KT4
J86...................QT93
QJ973.................8542
..........AQJ982
..........QJ5
..........AK
..........T6

Playing a fairly straightforward strong club with reverse-cuebids:

1-1
1-1N (or possibly 2, which would not change the subsequent auction)
2-3
4-4
4-4

Translation:
S: 16+, N: 9+ points, 5+ hearts, GF
S: 5+ spades, N: balanced (or 4+ diamonds if chosing the 2 bid)
S: 6+ spades, N: 4+ controls, 2 spades
S: 2 of top 3 spades, no 1st or 2nd round control of clubs, N: Clubs controled, but not diamonds
S: Diamonds controled, but not hearts, N: No heart control, signoff
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#15 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2013-January-12, 06:04

View Postsieong, on 2013-January-12, 00:09, said:

It would be interesting to see if Adam and I agree on how IMprecision bids these hands. For me, it will go


Well I'd ask for complete shape, not so much because I might want to play in hearts as because the seventh spade seems important to counting twelve tricks on some auctions. For example, AQJxxxx AK Ax xx is a cold slam with a bit of play for grand, whereas AQJxxx AKx Ax xx has no play for six on a diamond lead and might fail if hearts are 4-1 even on a club lead. Thus:

1 - 1 (strong club, double negative or bal GF or 7+RP)
1 - 1NT (spades, GF relay)
3 - 3 (6322 or 7222, asking)
3 - 3 (6322; asking strength)
3NT - 4 (9-10 RP; this is not enough so asking signoff)
4 - 4
Pass

I'm also not really sure I'd want to play in 3NT. It seems like 3NT will make ten tricks basically always, since they will attack one of the minors and that will not leave us the time to establish a heart trick. In 4 we will sometimes make only ten tricks, but they almost have to lead hearts on the go and get a ruff, which will be difficult in a lot of positions. Basically I suspect I have a 50% shot of making 11 tricks in spades against real defense, whereas I don't think I am ever making 11 tricks in notrump.
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#16 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2013-January-12, 06:09

Here's the MOSCITO auction

1 - 1 1D = Various Game Forcing Hands
1 - 1 1H = Opener prefers to ask rather than show
1N - 2
2 - 3 3D = 2=5=4=2 shape
3 - 4 3 = 3014 RKCB for RR's longest suit 4 = 1/4 key cards
4 - Pass

Here's a brief description of what's what:

The 1 response establishes an immediate game force

1 means that opener prefers to ask rather than show. This typically means that opener has extra strength or is balanced (where its better to ask rather than show). At this point in time, we're in a traditional symmetric relay structure at +1. Shape is completely resolved at +1.

Once shape is revealed, opener has a number of options for exploring slam. 3 bid would ask for slam points. In this case, I think that the heart holding is the key piece of information, so I prefer to bid 3 which is RKCB in RR's longest suit. Once RR is know to have one keycard, it seems clear to stop at 4

One "cost" of the keycard route is that you are unable to play in 4S.
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#17 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2013-January-12, 11:23

View Posthrothgar, on 2013-January-12, 06:09, said:

Once shape is revealed, opener has a number of options for exploring slam. 3 bid would ask for slam points. In this case, I think that the heart holding is the key piece of information, so I prefer to bid 3 which is RKCB in RR's longest suit. Once RR is know to have one keycard, it seems clear to stop at 4

One "cost" of the keycard route is that you are unable to play in 4S.


Richard,

This is an aside, but is there a distinct advantage to basing the RKC ask on suit length (longest to shortest, with ties broken in decreasing suit order)?

The reason for asking is that our RKC asks are based on increasing suit order ( to ) and there's something to be said about responder's longest suit likely being trump.
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#18 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2013-January-12, 11:27

View Postakhare, on 2013-January-12, 11:23, said:

Richard,

This is an aside, but is there a distinct advantage to basing the RKC ask on suit length (longest to shortest, with ties broken in decreasing suit order)?

The reason for asking is that our RKC asks are based on increasing suit order ( to ) and there's something to be said about responder's longest suit likely being trump.


We do this because it's very difficult to find key cards for clubs and diamonds without passing 5m. In fact, I think we've almost always chosen to use RKC when searching for minor suit slams. We have extra space and two routes of locating cards for spades and hearts.
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#19 User is offline   FM75 

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Posted 2013-January-12, 11:39

OCPrecision

1 - 1 8+, 5+
1N - 2 control ask, 4
2 - 3 asking spades. Hx or xxx, does not set trump
3 - 3 trump ask, no top honors! (that is a surprise - thinking ... ) - p has K and AK since ops have the other controls AK
4

(This auction does disclose to W that dummy will not have K or Q ...)
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#20 User is offline   petterb 

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Posted 2013-January-12, 15:51

View PostFM75, on 2013-January-12, 11:39, said:

OCPrecision

1 - 1 8+, 5+
1N - 2 control ask, 4
2 - 3 asking spades. Hx or xxx, does not set trump
3 - 3 trump ask, no top honors! (that is a surprise - thinking ... ) - p has K and AK since ops have the other controls AK
4

Why not 3NT instead of 4 ?
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