BBO Discussion Forums: How to bid this strong misfit? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

How to bid this strong misfit?

#1 User is offline   silvr bull 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 253
  • Joined: 2012-November-11

Posted 2013-January-03, 03:51

Playing IMPs with a good partner against random BBO opponents who are silent throughout this auction, how would you bid the north and south hands?


Edit after the 4th reply (Kenberg) below to add that my partner and I do play strong jump shifts, so north can bid 2 over 1. Is that the best way for north to begin this hand description? If a SJS is the right start, what would be the best continuation after south bids 3?
0

#2 User is offline   eagles123 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,716
  • Joined: 2011-June-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK Near London
  • Interests:Crystal Palace

Posted 2013-January-03, 04:04

1 - natural
1 - natural
3 - reverse into clubs
3 - insist on spades
4 - cue bid clubs
4 - cue bid diamonds
4 - cue bid hearts
6 lets have a go :)

just a pure guess lol would like to see some proper answers :D
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
0

#3 User is offline   Codo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Joined: 2003-March-15
  • Location:Hamburg, Germany
  • Interests:games and sports, esp. bridge,chess and (beach-)volleyball

Posted 2013-January-03, 04:58

1 1 ( I do not have a strong 2 avaiable..)
2 2 (4. suit GF)
3 4 (at least 5/5, minorwood)
5 6 (I have a good hand and 2 KCs+ queen, ok then...)

After the "obvious" diamond lead I need spades 4-2 or better and the jack of hearts covered or Kx in hearts somewhere or the club finesse working.
If I play in clubs- with a known fit and the ability to discard diamonds on spades, I may have communication problems to discard enough loser on my spade suit.
Kind Regards

Roland


Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
0

#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,371
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2013-January-03, 05:01

1-2(single suited rock crusher or HHxxx+/Hxxx+)
2N(small singleton spade at best)-3(single suited type, still want to play in spades despite the bad news)
3N(heart cue, not flat broke)-4
4(club cue)-4N(KC)
5-6
0

#5 User is online   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,946
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2013-January-03, 07:11

I would not evaluate the South hand as being particularly strong after partner responds 1. Assuming that I am not allowed to bid 1-2 ( like playing strong jump shifts, but that's me and five other people on the planet) I think my problem comes after 1-1-2. I would now bid 4 if my Ace of Diamonds were the deuce, so when it is the Ace I have a problem. Since even looking at both hands it seems that the result could be anything from ten to thirteen tricks depending, I guess it should not be surprising that I have a problem. Probably I bid 2 and then, over 2, jump to 4. Partner is supposed to figure I had some reason for bidding 2 before jumping to 4, but this probably ends the auction.

I would not place a heavy bet on the auction going this way, but I think it is likely. The other possibility is that over 2 South bids 3. That maybe sounds right. OK, then 3-4-4, and I think that we are still done.
Ken
1

#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,371
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2013-January-03, 08:06

Another treatment we have here that works well is that even without the SJS we can give a good picture of the South hand as we play 1-1-3 showing specifically this hand type, two good 5+ card suits, not a very good hand in terms of HCP. Our auction would be 1-1-3-3-4-4 which would suggest 0625 without the diamond AKQ.
0

#7 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,907
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2013-January-03, 10:47

1-2: normal; SJS, either spades, or spades and hearts, or balanced, 5+ controls, 5- losers, at least 5 spades.
3-3: no spade honor, concentration (2 of the top 3) in clubs; one suited, spades are trumps, requests cue bidding
4-4: club control (already shown), probably no control in diamonds (not previously shown); diamond control
4-6: heart control; note that opener has not shown any spade support
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#8 User is offline   chasetb 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 870
  • Joined: 2009-December-20
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Podunk, backwater USA

Posted 2013-January-03, 10:49

1 - 2 s.j.s
3 (5+ HCP in , not always a suit) - 4 (at least AKQTxxx or better, 13-16 HCP, outside A or KQ)
All Pass

It might be better on this hand for 4 to show North's kind of hand, where it's an intermediate GF that has a chance for slam if partner has a few controls and a side suit (usually the minor) to set up. Then, you might have a chance of finding 6.
"It's not enough to win the tricks that belong to you. Try also for some that belong to the opponents."

"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."

"One advantage of bad bidding is that you get practice at playing atrocious contracts."

-Alfred Sheinwold
0

#9 User is online   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,946
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2013-January-03, 15:39

View Postsilvr bull, on 2013-January-03, 03:51, said:

Edit after the 4th reply (Kenberg) below to add that my partner and I do play strong jump shifts, so north can bid 2 over 1. Is that the best way for north to begin this hand description? If a SJS is the right start, what would be the best continuation after south bids 3?


This occurred to me also, that possibly this will not be a great success story for strong jump shifts. But let's look. Presumably 1-2-3-3 sets spades as trump in a very firm manner. Moreover, bidding 3 rather than 4 suggests something more to show.

What then? I suppose the auction continues 4-4-4-4. North has told his story. A spade suit that will take care of itself, the ace of diamonds, that's it. He has shown it, he has it, he is done.

6 certainly has a decent play, but I wouldn't call it a lock. Probably the opening lead is a diamond, taken by North. He draws trump, I suppose in four or five rounds. Heart to the Ace, small heart ruffed. If the King falls, club to the ace, pitch the diamond on the Queen of hearts, small club to the ten, claim twelve tricks. If the King of Hearts does not appear, then I run the club. Is there a better line?


Mostly I think that if North shows his self-sustaining suit and his Diamond Ace, then he has shown his hand. After that, South is at bat, and if North has done a good job of showing what he has and hasn't, got, I think South will pass. This might be good, this might be bad.
Ken
0

#10 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,031
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2013-January-03, 16:49

Even knowing that one plays SJS doesn't adequately address even the 2nd round of the bidding.

The first issue is what is opener to do in response to a SJS.

That depends on the hand type shown. In the olden days a SJS need not promise any great length nor even a fit for opener if relatively short. It was, in NA at least, intended to alert opener to the possibility of slam and thus was based mostly on huge strength.

More recently, many players adopted the Soloway Jump Shift, in which the SJS was reserved for two hand types. One, which is represented here, is the huge one-suiter. The other was a very good hand with a decent 5+ suit and a very good fit for opener.

When playing this method, it is important to note that the SJS announces, in essence, that the hand will be played in one of the two suits shown so far or in notrump. It will not be played in a third suit.

This allowed, and virtually required, that opener's introduction of a third suit was not natural. It was to be a cuebid in support of responder's suit, and opener didn't need a lot of support to make the cue, since responder would always clarify, at his next bid, what type of SJS he had. If he bid opener's suit, then that suit was ostensibly trump. If he bid anything else, then he confirmed the single-suit rock-crusher.

If one played this method, one cannot bid 3 over 2. Instead one rebids 3. Now a new suit by responder (or for the adventurous amongst us, 3N) would be confirming hearts, and 3 (or 4) would confirm spades, with the jump to game denying slam interest after opener's essentially negative 3 bid.

It seems that at least some posters do limit the SJS to the Soloway meanings, but either don't know the follow-ups or have chosen not to use them. So for them, 3 is a suit.

Personally, I don't play SJS, altho interestingly this is the one sequence in which a SJS is arguably most effective/least costly.

We have the majors, so there is relatively little need to use 2 as a WJS to preempt the opps. And with the good hand, we risk the ugly auction of 1 1 2 3 to establish the gameforce and haven't really done much to describe our hand.

For me, I'd respond 1 and thereafter:

1 1
2 2
2 3

2 is a mark time bid, which doesn't promise 6 cards...it is what one might choose with say x AQJxx xxx AJxx.

3 sets trump. It is forcing and shows a very good suit. Maybe not AKQJxxx but that would be no surprise, and the suit should definitely play for no more than 1 loser. Opener is not expected to worry about his spade length, tho he'd be forgiven for doing so with a void.

Opener would then, imo, bid 4 and after 2 more cue bids, opener can bid 4, having shown long, strong spades and the diamond control and mild slam interest (else he'd have bid 4 earlier).
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,371
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2013-January-03, 17:47

MikeH's post is interesting, we play something like reverse Soloway as we've found that the 2 suited hand is much more common than the single suited one, so the only bids that show the single suiter are a rebid of responder's suit or 3N.

We also play (in a weak NT 4 card major context) that a 2N rebid over 1-2 shows a shortage in spades, no better than small singleton, all other bids show at least a doubleton (or stiff honour).
0

#12 User is online   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,946
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2013-January-03, 18:12

I am aware of Soloway Strong Jumpshifts, at least somewhat aware. I have never had a partnership where we had agreed to play them. It's rare enough to find someone willing to play jumpshifts as other than weak.


(I woke this morning realizing that I must be remembering this next part wrong, but I leave it in anyway . It seems to me it would be a serious drawback if opener could not not show his clubs here. As mentioned in my later post, I learned Soloway Jump Shifts from Goldman's Aces Scientific, and the book as gone awol.)

With respect to this hand I was aware (in the light of day I think I was fantasizing) that in the Soloway style bidding 3 over 2 shows a spade fit. I decided to ignore that since (a) Soloway style had not been stipulated and (b) it did not seem to make much difference. Over 2-3, bidding 3 also sets spades as trump. Now I am a little vague on the borderline between 2- 3 and the weaker 2-4 in the Soloway style, which of course is another reason I didn't bring it up.

But as long as 3 sets trump. I don't really see the problem after 3-4-4-4-4.


At this point South reasons: "My partner knows how many spade tricks he has. If he could bid 6 on the basis of his spades, his Ace of Diamonds, and my cue bids he would have done so. If he had a King in one of my suits, he surely would have shown it instead of bidding 4. If he had the King of Diamonds he would realize he had, beside having this trick, the control needed to develop one of my my suits. Quite possibly he would have been satisfied with AQ of Diamonds. I don't think he has those cards. And now that I look, I see I don't have any side kings either. So I can gamble on pard being able to develop and reach tricks in my hand, or I can pass." All of this reasoning seems to be supported by the auction, and seems to pretty much sum up the situation. If South wants to go for it, he can. He should not be surprised to find that the slam will need a little luck, or at least an absence of bad luck.

So you gotta ask yourself, are you feeling lucky?

Added: It's true that I am assuming that 3 over 3 shows a suit that needs no help. With or without discussion, it seems to me that if partner jump shifts into spades and then rebids spades, he is telling me I should not be worried about the quality of my non-support for his suit.

I guess what I am claiming is that this is a reasonable way to bid the hands if your agreements are that jumpshifts are strong but you have not had extensive discussions. If you have had discussion, of course that is even better. North gets to bid out his values, South listens and places the contract. Not perfect, but what is?

This post has been edited by kenberg: 2013-January-04, 06:04

Ken
0

#13 User is offline   CSGibson 

  • Tubthumper
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,835
  • Joined: 2007-July-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, OR, USA
  • Interests:Bridge, pool, financial crime. New experiences, new people.

Posted 2013-January-03, 19:04

My impression of a Soloway jump shift is different than MikeH's. I thought that after a strong JS, responder basically relayed to give responder maximum room to describe their hand. This hand would relay to 2N, and responder would clarify their hand type. I've linked to a write-up of the approach I'm describing here:

http://www.bridgebum...jump_shifts.php

In that approach, playing strong JS, my auction might go:

1-2,
2N-3,
3N-4, (3N as non-serious, only because of the 2 aces is it worth that much in my opinion)
4-4,
all pass.
Chris Gibson
0

#14 User is online   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,946
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2013-January-03, 21:51

I am pretty sure that my knowledge of Soloway Jump Shifts came from reading Bobby Goldma's Aces Sscientific, a book that I most unfortunately seem to have lost. I don't remember anything about relays but I can imagine such ideas developing. What I reval is that the jump shift was on one of three types of hands:

A. The one suiter. 1-2 after which responder would rebid spades. This showed a solid suit. If the rebid was a jump rebid to 4 it was not all that much more than a solid suit. If the rebid was 3, there would be extras. I think the Ace of Diamonds would be enough to justify 3 but I am not positive.

B. A somewhat traditional big hand, semi-balanced. . Five spades, 18 highs, stoppers in the other suits. First the jump shift, then the NT bid.

C. A fit for opener's suit to go with his jump shift. This required fewer, maybe substantially fewer, highs than in case B. If I recall correctly, if responder did anything except rebid his suit (case A) or bid NT (case B) then this showed a fit for opener's suit.


Beyond that, I am vague on the details. It all seemed reasonably sensible, and maybe the book is still in print. Not that Soloway Jump Shifts have to be played exactly as in Goldman's book, it was written long ago, but I just liked the book.
Ken
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users