BBO Discussion Forums: ATB: 3S+2 - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

ATB: 3S+2

#1 User is offline   kgr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,423
  • Joined: 2003-April-11

Posted 2012-November-14, 11:23

IMPs

first time partner with few agreements:
- Not 2/1 GF
- Not agreed if 2S was forcing, apparently not.
- 2NT iso 2C would have been GF with 4cS
- 2NT iso 2S would be 15+
How should bidding have gone?
0

#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,902
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2012-November-14, 12:03

Not sure how it should have gone, with us:

1-2
2-3
3-4

On your auction if you play a weak 2 that tops out at 10 and you really do open it at the top end, I'd probably bid 3 over 2. You don't need much for game to be decent, I'd certainly bid 4 when partner bids 3.
1

#3 User is offline   mike777 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,739
  • Joined: 2003-October-07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-November-14, 13:07

I dont understand any of norths bids?

100% north.

harder to stay out of 5s or 5d then bid and play in 3s.
0

#4 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2012-November-14, 13:12

The 2S rebid by opener was correct and fine, and responder can raise with honor doubleton and invitational values. Opener must have 6 spades for the sequence and more power than a weak-two.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#5 User is offline   billw55 

  • enigmatic
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,757
  • Joined: 2009-July-31
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-November-14, 14:27

North decides not to open the bidding - ok, this is close. But then to not even scrape up an invite over 2 is really awful. Whiffing on the second chance is maybe predictable but at least adds amusement.

For south, I think his hand is good enough to bid 6-4-6. But with this catatonic north I am not sure even that would help.

90% north.
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
1

#6 User is offline   TimG 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,972
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA

Posted 2012-November-14, 16:09

I wonder what North was thinking when he passed 2.
0

#7 User is offline   kenrexford 

  • Brain Farts and Actual Farts Increasing with Age
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,586
  • Joined: 2005-September-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lima, Allen County, North-West-Central Ohio, USA
  • Interests:www.limadbc.blogspot.com editor/contributor

Posted 2012-November-14, 16:35

View PostTimG, on 2012-November-14, 16:09, said:

I wonder what North was thinking when he passed 2.


North may have been thinking along these lines:

My 2 call shows 11 HCP with five clubs, because a 2/1 promises 11 HCP. If I had 0-1 spades, then I would have opened (Rule of Twenty). Hence, I must have 11 HCP, two spades, and five clubs. If partner wants to play 2 opposite exactly what I have, that's fine with me.

I am not saying that this is right or wrong. But, it that is what North thought, then his bidding was perfect.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
0

#8 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2012-November-14, 16:57

View Postkenrexford, on 2012-November-14, 16:35, said:

North may have been thinking along these lines:

My 2 call shows 11 HCP with five clubs, because a 2/1 promises 11 HCP. If I had 0-1 spades, then I would have opened (Rule of Twenty). Hence, I must have 11 HCP, two spades, and five clubs. If partner wants to play 2 opposite exactly what I have, that's fine with me.

I am not saying that this is right or wrong. But, it that is what North thought, then his bidding was perfect.


This is all a bit unlikely, though; since 2/1 was not GF, it probably didn't promise 11 especially not by a passed hand -- what would the range be, 11-11?)
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#9 User is offline   PhilKing 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,240
  • Joined: 2012-June-25

Posted 2012-November-14, 18:29

View PostVampyr, on 2012-November-14, 16:57, said:

This is all a bit unlikely, though; since 2/1 was not GF, it probably didn't promise 11 especially not by a passed hand -- what would the range be, 11-11?)


It's narrower than that - 11.5 to 11.75.

B-)
1

#10 User is offline   lowerline 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 553
  • Joined: 2004-March-29
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 2012-November-15, 08:49

View Postkgr, on 2012-November-14, 11:23, said:

IMPs

first time partner with few agreements:
- Not 2/1 GF
- Not agreed if 2S was forcing, apparently not.
- 2NT iso 2C would have been GF with 4cS
- 2NT iso 2S would be 15+
How should bidding have gone?


If I were North I would have bid 3 over 2.
If I were South I would have bid 2 over 2.
In both cases it is easy to reach 4...

Steven
0

#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2012-November-15, 09:58

View PostPhilKing, on 2012-November-14, 18:29, said:

It's narrower than that - 11.5 to 11.75.

B-)


Maybe narrower still -- 11.75 would probably have opened.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#12 User is offline   ahydra 

  • AQT92 AQ --- QJ6532
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,840
  • Joined: 2009-September-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wellington, NZ

Posted 2012-November-15, 10:13

I thought "Always introduce a good 4-card suit before rebidding a 6-card suit"? So I'd bid 1S; 2C-2D. Now North has an obvious raise to 3D. I think South bids 3S at this point, but is it forcing? Well, South could just pass 3D so surely it must be, and surely it shows 6 cards since N would bid spades 2nd time if he had 3 of them, so then North raises to 4, and all is well.

On the actual auction, pass of 2S is silly. South wouldn't rebid spades with 5332, he'd rebid NT, therefore he has 6 spades and N should bid 3S (South having an easy raise to game).

ahydra
0

#13 User is offline   kgr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,423
  • Joined: 2003-April-11

Posted 2012-November-15, 10:21

View Postahydra, on 2012-November-15, 10:13, said:

I thought "Always introduce a good 4-card suit before rebidding a 6-card suit"? So I'd bid 1S; 2C-2D. Now North has an obvious raise to 3D. I think South bids 3S at this point, but is it forcing? Well, South could just pass 3D so surely it must be, and surely it shows 6 cards since N would bid spades 2nd time if he had 3 of them, so then North raises to 4, and all is well.

On the actual auction, pass of 2S is silly. South wouldn't rebid spades with 5332, he'd rebid NT, therefore he has 6 spades and N should bid 3S (South having an easy raise to game).

ahydra

see OP. 2NT iso 2S is 15+
0

#14 User is offline   ahydra 

  • AQT92 AQ --- QJ6532
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,840
  • Joined: 2009-September-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wellington, NZ

Posted 2012-November-15, 11:28

View Postkgr, on 2012-November-15, 10:21, said:

see OP. 2NT iso 2S is 15+


Right - I meant "with 15+ and 5332" then, but you would rebid 2S with a 12-14 5332 (Acol style)? If so, then South cannot afford to bid 2S because his hand is MUCH better than a 12-14 5332.

ahydra
0

#15 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2012-November-15, 11:42

Actually, something's got to bend with the OP conditions, as shown by the posts.

Semi-forcing NT instead of 2C, for instance ---to eliminate the range problems for 5-3-3-2 and establish 2S as having 6.

Or, mark-time 2D/2C to let responder rebid something meaningful if opener is 5-3-3-2 ---to keep 2S as 6+ and 2nt as 15+.

Or, (perish the thought) opening 1NT with 5-3-3-2 and one of those ranges, depending on whether it is weak NT or strong NT.

Something.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-November-15, 12:13

"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#16 User is offline   neilkaz 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,568
  • Joined: 2006-June-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Barrington IL USA
  • Interests:Backgammon, Bridge, Hockey

Posted 2012-November-15, 12:28

View PostTimG, on 2012-November-14, 16:09, said:

I wonder what North was thinking when he passed 2.

He should have been thinking whether he'd have the same partner for the next hand after this pass, but his failure to raise the freely bid 3 to 4 was just as bad.
0

#17 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,366
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2012-November-15, 23:24

Bidding with red pockets at IMPs, North must raise to 4 once South bids 3 .

The scoring at IMPs is such that you should bid even games with less than even chances of making vulnerable. North is on the edge of an opener, but I think initially passing is fine with the dangling J and only decent looking . So, once South shows 6 s and there is a known 8 card fit, it's imperative for North to go on.

South should also strongly consider bidding 2 for a rebid rather than 2 . He has minimum values in terms of points, but only a 5 loser hand. Because of the basic agreements -- 2 NT rebid after a 2/1 bid shows 15+ -- opener will often have to rebid 2 with nondescript 5-3-3-2 hands or bad distributional hands -- say AKJxx Kx xxxx xx. As is the case here, that puts North into a quandary as to what to do next because South's hand is still a complete mystery other than being an opener. So even with any reasonably good minimum -- even AKJxx xx K10xx xx (2 ) -- opener ought to make some other forward going bid, if available, to keep the auction going.

That being said, I think North as responder owes opener another bid after 2 . North has told opener that they're at least in a game invitational situation by bidding 2 . Not knowing exactly what opener holds, it still needs to be determined if game is possible. So it's rather unilateral for North to pass. 3 is unattractive with North's modest holding. So I think the choice is between 2 NT and 3 -- I'd opt for 2 NT. If North is unwilling to take a second call after a 2 rebid maybe 1 NT should have been bid initially.
0

#18 User is offline   kgr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,423
  • Joined: 2003-April-11

Posted 2012-November-16, 03:14

Thanks all for the answers.
I was south and thought that 2S was forcing. I think it is in majeure cinquieme, and it is easier if it is forcing.
With my regular partner I play it forcing.
My plan was: 1S 2S 3D, and maybe my hand is too good for that.
0

#19 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,666
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2012-November-16, 03:18

View Postahydra, on 2012-November-15, 11:28, said:

but you would rebid 2S with a 12-14 5332 (Acol style)?

Is 12-14 5332 (Acol style) not a 1NT opening? :blink:
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
0

#20 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,068
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 2012-November-16, 03:34

View Postkgr, on 2012-November-15, 10:21, said:

see OP. 2NT iso 2S is 15+

A balanced 12-13 would pass 2 wouldn't it? Or maybe 2 on a 3-card suit sometimes, which is also what would be the rebid if responder were unpassed.

I strongly believe that
1-2
2*
should promise six in any natural system (except if 2 includes weak hands with 5-4+ blacks as in SAYC, but in that case 2 is forcing, and opener would have passed 2 with such a hand so that can be rules out). But even without that agreement, responder should assume that opener has six spades which he will have almost all the times.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users