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Landy convention question

#1 User is offline   Toro67 

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Posted 2012-September-16, 12:06

Opponent opens 1NT and I have the next bid and have a good hand (say 11 to 13 hcps) and 6 clubs led by the AK. If I bid 2c my partner will assume I have majors, so how do I show my clubs?
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#2 User is offline   sasioc 

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Posted 2012-September-16, 13:03

Bid 3
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#3 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2012-September-16, 13:04

View PostToro67, on 2012-September-16, 12:06, said:

Opponent opens 1NT and I have the next bid and have a good hand (say 11 to 13 hcps) and 6 clubs led by the AK. If I bid 2c my partner will assume I have majors, so how do I show my clubs?


3, or pass. This is a general problem with using 2 as an artificial bid. However, the hands with majors are about the same frequency and are much more likely to produce a game or to "win" a competitive auction.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#4 User is offline   paua 

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Posted 2012-September-16, 17:04

View PostToro67, on 2012-September-16, 12:06, said:

Opponent opens 1NT and I have the next bid and have a good hand (say 11 to 13 hcps) and 6 clubs led by the AK. If I bid 2c my partner will assume I have majors, so how do I show my clubs?


Pass and come in later with clubs. Be happy to defend 1NT.

Or play Multi-Landy, 2D shows any single-suited hand, partner relays to 2H, bid your suit.
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#5 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-September-16, 19:45

3C. Clubs is the only strain, BTW, which always must compete to the three level if there are mutual eight-card fits, per ltt. So, not a big deal.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#6 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-September-16, 20:29

View Postpaua, on 2012-September-16, 17:04, said:

Or play Multi-Landy, 2D shows any single-suited hand, partner relays to 2H, bid your suit.

And end up in the same contract you would have by bidding 3 immediately.

Presumably the advantage of Multi-Landy is that advancer can choose NOT to bid 2 if he has a long major.

#7 User is offline   paua 

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Posted 2012-September-16, 23:42

View Postbarmar, on 2012-September-16, 20:29, said:

And end up in the same contract you would have by bidding 3 immediately.

Presumably the advantage of Multi-Landy is that advancer can choose NOT to bid 2 if he has a long major.


Advancer's 2D would be equal length in majors, and this is the main advantage of ML/Woolsey over Cappelletti, I think. Disadvantage in that you cannot stop in 2D.
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#8 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-September-17, 01:18

Oops, I misread your description of Multi-Landy.

So in terms of showing a club suit, there really isn't any difference between Landy and Multi-Landy, you always end up in 3. Multi-Landy also makes it impossible to play 2, you have to play 3.

#9 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-September-17, 02:16

Multi-Landy is 2 = majors; 2 = one major (sometimes big 2-suiters are also added); 2M = M + m. The same but where 2 can be any one-suiter is usually described as Reverse Cappelletti (or more rarely Reverse Hamilton). It may seem that being able to stop in 2 is an advantage for Capp over M-L but most players who have tried both will tell you that being able to find out the longer major cheaply is much more important. When you stop in 2, you often get outbid in a major anyway.
(-: Zel :-)
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#10 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-September-17, 08:16

View Postkenrexford, on 2012-September-16, 19:45, said:

3C. Clubs is the only strain, BTW, which always must compete to the three level if there are mutual eight-card fits, per ltt. So, not a big deal.

Interesting. So why is 3 not suitable?
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#11 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2012-September-17, 08:22

View PostfromageGB, on 2012-September-17, 08:16, said:

Interesting. So why is 3 not suitable?

Because if we have an 8-card fit in diamonds and they have an 8-card fit in clubs then per LTT we should let them play 3.

Then again, if they have an 8-card fit in diamonds they might not find it anyway, and when we have an 8-card fit they might just have three 7-card fits. So the difference in lawfulness between 3 and 3 is not that big.
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#12 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-September-17, 08:23

View PostfromageGB, on 2012-September-17, 08:16, said:

Interesting. So why is 3 not suitable?


If you assume that on the average deal each side has one 8-card fit and that the LTT is working, then playing 3 might be bad if the opponents' fit is in clubs. Now, these are a lot of assumptions, obviously, but the assumptions are a reasonable starting point for thinking things through.

As an example of how this works for thinking, 2 or 2 showing that major and clubs is safer than the same call showing that major in either minor and much safer than showing that major and diamonds, for example. Burning up club calls is not that troubling, as well, because club-strain end contracts tend to be higher anyway.
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#13 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2012-September-17, 08:27

View Postpaua, on 2012-September-16, 23:42, said:

Advancer's 2D would be equal length in majors, and this is the main advantage of ML/Woolsey over Cappelletti, I think.


This is one of my favourite conventions - I love it when opponents play it. Knowing that the 2D bidder has equal length provides lots of useful information in the bidding as well as during the play. Even when the 2D bidder's hand is dummy, it can fatally inform the opening lead. And when they don't bid 2D, this information can be just as useful.

I grant that it's much harder to double when you land in a 5-2 suit rather than one that's 4-2, but being able to find 5-3 and 5-2 fits has always seemed a very poor tradeoff given how much you give away in competitive partscore auctions.
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#14 User is offline   ThymePuns 

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Posted 2012-September-17, 15:41

View Postsfi, on 2012-September-17, 08:27, said:

This is one of my favourite conventions - I love it when opponents play it. Knowing that the 2D bidder has equal length provides lots of useful information in the bidding as well as during the play. Even when the 2D bidder's hand is dummy, it can fatally inform the opening lead. And when they don't bid 2D, this information can be just as useful.

I grant that it's much harder to double when you land in a 5-2 suit rather than one that's 4-2, but being able to find 5-3 and 5-2 fits has always seemed a very poor tradeoff given how much you give away in competitive partscore auctions.

1H (P) 2H showing support is my favorite treatment -- for the opponents to play! Knowing that they have at least an 8-card fit just makes it totally obvious to know when to compete. I much prefer 2H to show 1-5 hearts so the opponents are in the dark on whether to bid or not. I mean, sure, it can be useful to actually play in a suit where you have 8 or more cards between the two hands, but you just lose way too much in competitive auctions.
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#15 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2012-September-17, 15:43

View PostThymePuns, on 2012-September-17, 15:41, said:

1H (P) 2H showing support is my favorite treatment -- for the opponents to play! Knowing that they have at least an 8-card fit just makes it totally obvious to know when to compete. I much prefer 2H to show 1-5 hearts so the opponents are in the dark on whether to bid or not. I mean, sure, it can be useful to actually play in a suit where you have 8 or more cards between the two hands, but you just lose way too much in competitive auctions.


You really think the two situations are equivalent? If so, then good for you.
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#16 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-September-18, 02:07

Helene and Ken, thanks. I hadn't thought of it that way, because my opponents always seem to have a major fit, but you are right.
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