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Defense against 4S

#1 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 02:39



Partner leads the diamond ace and continues with a small diamond to queen and king. Declarer cashes the spade ace and curses softly when partner discards an encouraging club. A second spade is led to the jack and your queen, partner pitching another club.

How do you continue?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#2 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 03:02

View Posthan, on 2012-August-28, 02:39, said:



Partner leads the diamond ace and continues with a small diamond to queen and king. Declarer cashes the spade ace and curses softly when partner discards an encouraging club. A second spade is led to the jack and your queen, partner pitching another club.

How do you continue?


If partner has 4 cards in hearts the contract will be down.
So assume declarer to have 2 cards in hearts including the ace.
Now the contract will go down only on a trump promotion.
Return the 8 and hopefully partner will switch back to diamonds.

Rainer Herrmann
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#3 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 03:17

Same but I would expect 2 to be more readable for partner. I am used to lavinthals instead of attitude leads in those situations (obviously the merits of both agreements are the same, you just need to know what partner expects).
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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 04:04

Rainer, it seems to me that if you have 3 aces plus a trump trick then the contract is already down. But in that case you'd still like to set it two tricks, and indeed, I was hoping for comments about how to signal to partner that you'd like a trump promotion.

Bluecalm, suppose you had K82 of clubs and you wanted to force dummy. Wouldn't you play the 2 in case partner has A10xxxx and declarer QJx? Is there no card that tells partner that you want a continuation?

At the table I thought that the 2 was asking for a diamond switch but now I think that it should be the 8.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#5 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 04:25

Quote

Bluecalm, suppose you had K82 of clubs and you wanted to force dummy. Wouldn't you play the 2 in case partner has A10xxxx and declarer QJx? Is there no card that tells partner that you want a continuation?


Why ?
If anything I would like to play a high card from say Q9x just in case declarer has K8x and partner AJTxx or w/e.
I mean, with the exception of this (and maybe some similar) unlikely layout when high card is better it just matter of agreement. Why do you think a low one "should" show a desire to tap dummy and not the other way around ?
I am used to playing that we always give lavi in those situations and never attitude lead. Similarly I am used to always giving either attitude in a led suit or suit preference to the other suit never "discourage to encourage switch".

I don't believe bridge logic suggests one or the other you just have to have those agreemens with your partner or you are just guessing.
(one great example of such guessing gone wrong is Narkiewicz-Buras blunder vs Italians in recent WMSG semifinal)
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#6 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 05:42

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-August-28, 04:25, said:

Why ?
If anything I would like to play a high card from say Q9x just in case declarer has K8x and partner AJTxx or w/e.


I don't understand your response. I asked what you would play from K82 and you said you'd play high from Q9x. I don't understand what is so unlikely about K82 that you want to ignore this holding.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#7 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 05:56

View Posthan, on 2012-August-28, 04:04, said:

Rainer, it seems to me that if you have 3 aces plus a trump trick then the contract is already down. But in that case you'd still like to set it two tricks, and indeed, I was hoping for comments about how to signal to partner that you'd like a trump promotion.

Of course, that's why I assumed declarer having both major suit aces.
If partner has 3 aces, it should not matter whether we force the dummy with clubs or play for a trump promotion.
The contract looks always 2 down at least on any minor suit continuation.
3 aces also means we could have made a high level contract ourselves however.

As to signalling. Standard is certainly that a high card denies interest in the suit.
Playing suit preference on the lead is difficult, since you have to signal 3 things on the lead:
Higher suit, lower suit or continuation of the actual suit led. This is fine when it is known that leader has many small cards to choose from in the suit led. But here?

Rainer Herrmann
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#8 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 06:27

Quote

I don't understand your response. I asked what you would play from K82 and you said you'd play high from Q9x. I don't understand what is so unlikely about K82 that you want to ignore this holding.


I don't want to ignore it. I say that if you play low or high here is just matter of agreement and I am to pick one I prefer leading an 8 from K82 (and have a 2 as suit preference for diamnods).

Quote

Playing suit preference on the lead is difficult, since you have to signal 3 things on the lead:


No, you don't. Signalling hearts is pointless here so signal to heart just denies interest in diamonds (and thus suggest interest in continuing clubs).
It has the exact same merits as attitude. You just need an agreement.
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#9 User is offline   mfa1010 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 07:05

I would return an attitude style (noninvitational) 8 and hope partner reads the layout.
Michael Askgaard
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#10 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 08:27

I would play this as attitude - 8 asks for a switch and 2 for a club return. I am interested what others would consider standard.
Disclaimer: this post is not intended to offend anyone who spews constant drivel. --PhilKing
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#11 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 08:34

View Postrhm, on 2012-August-28, 05:56, said:

Of course, that's why I assumed declarer having both major suit aces.


Sorry, I misread your initial post. I don't think you should assume something that is obviously wrong though. Partner doubled 4S, he will have both aces so let's focus on how to set it two tricks.

Quote

If partner has 3 aces, it should not matter whether we force the dummy with clubs or play for a trump promotion.


At the table declarer had Axxx Qx K10xxx xx which should be no surprise. You will need the trump promotion in order to beat the contract by two tricks, as you cannot force dummy twice. It is true that partner will get a second chance to play diamonds, but if you show an interest in forcing the dummy now, it will be harder for partner to get it right later.

For what it is worth, I do agree with you and MFA that a low club would ask for a continuation, while a high club asks for a switch. I also agree with bluecalm that this is mostly a matter of partnership agreements.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#12 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 08:42

Agree with Cherdano's interpretation of the club spots.

I think we can help partner a little more by playing the 9 on the Ace.
Where there's ink there's squid Phil.
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#13 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 10:43

As I tell all my clients, if I lead a 2 back return my lead, if I lead an 8 back shift! (just kidding, but I agree with others that this is just an attitude spot, at least the way I'm used to playing).
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#14 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-August-30, 12:21

My partner and I play this as a SP spot. I would play the two for a diamond return.
The physics is theoretical, but the fun is real. - Sheldon Cooper
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