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What does the Double show? 1D-P-1H-P-2D-Dbl

#1 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2012-August-22, 02:38



2/1 context. 2 rebid likely on 6...

The coffeehousing discussion has identified 2 or 3 possibilities:

1) Constructive black suit takeout - too weak to double or overcall at first...
2) Opening hand (+) takeout of , unable/unwilling to overcall on a 4-card suit, penalty overtones toward
3) 4=4=4=1 or 4=4=3=2 with constructive or opening (+) values.

What would expert standard suggest? What do you think South holds?

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#2 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2012-August-22, 02:41

take-out. four spades and 4 clubs (or 5 bad ones). Presumably not three hearts due to the failure to make a t/o double on first round, hence usually three diamonds but could be two. I don't think it should be a hand too weak for a t/o double in first round.
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#3 User is offline   dkham 

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Posted 2012-August-22, 04:28

A takeout bid showing the black suits, couldn't bid first time. Something like

KQxx xx xx AQxxx
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#4 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-August-22, 05:08

View Postdkham, on 2012-August-22, 04:28, said:

A takeout bid showing the black suits, couldn't bid first time. Something like

KQxx xx xx AQxxx


Would one not bid 2C with that first time?

This feels to me like a prebalancing action, especially given the vul - some sort of J10xx Kxx xx AQxx or something.

ahydra
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#5 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-August-22, 09:00

4-5 blacks or so. I need a reason to bid here since I am entering a live auction.

Some old timers might think this is a penalty x.
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#6 User is offline   sailoranch 

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Posted 2012-August-22, 17:59

View Postahydra, on 2012-August-22, 05:08, said:

Would one not bid 2C with that first time?

This feels to me like a prebalancing action, especially given the vul - some sort of J10xx Kxx xx AQxx or something.

ahydra


I would not. There are only five clubs, and the suit quality is lacking for a two-level overcall. Plus we have xx in their suit.

But styles vary, and 1 - (2) is always a pain for the opponents, as it takes away tons of bidding room and makes LHO's double nebulous.
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#7 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2012-August-22, 18:21

Take out for me and didn't bid the first time since my 4 card suit isn't good enough to o/c and I don't have enough to make me feel comfortable doubling initially.
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#8 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2012-August-22, 23:16

View Postdkham, on 2012-August-22, 04:28, said:

A takeout bid showing the black suits, couldn't bid first time. Something like

KQxx xx xx AQxxx


Would some overcall 1 with this hand?
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#9 User is offline   sailoranch 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 15:39

View PostSteveMoe, on 2012-August-22, 23:16, said:

Would some overcall 1 with this hand?


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#10 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 15:56

it makes no sense to x 2d for penalty--if opps wish to stop in 2d thats great for us
the only thing a penalty x will accomplish is to give them every reason to hunt around
for a safer spot. The x here is a much more valuable tool as tox for the black suits
preferably a nicely distributed 55 weakish hand similar to

Qxxxx xx x Kxxxx we could have more tame distribution but then we would need more
power to compensate with a hand like KJTx xx xxx KQJx.
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#11 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 21:48

View Postsailoranch, on 2012-August-23, 15:39, said:


Thanks Neil!
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#12 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2012-August-23, 22:37

There are a lot of hands that have to pass 1 but want to get involved now. Always 4 spades, not of the quality for an overcall and clubs.

Could be looking to defend 3 of something instead of 2 or finding a profitable sacrifice opposite somthing like 5 spades, a stiff club and not much.
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#13 User is offline   Quantumcat 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 00:16

View Postgszes, on 2012-August-23, 15:56, said:

it makes no sense to x 2d for penalty--if opps wish to stop in 2d thats great for us
the only thing a penalty x will accomplish is to give them every reason to hunt around
for a safer spot.

Also if they were about to bid something like 1 1 2 2NT 3NT, now they can safely not bother (for a tight 3NT to make, presumably they need good things happening in diamonds, so if 2 doesn't make neither will NT).

However what about the auction
(1) P (1) P
(2) P P X

If you wanted to make a takeout for spades and diamonds, you could have doubled previously. So would this be a penalty double?
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#14 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 00:24

Couldn't you just want to keep the auction alive once you know your RHO is limited?
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#15 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 01:20

View PostAntrax, on 2012-August-28, 00:24, said:

Couldn't you just want to keep the auction alive once you know your RHO is limited?

No. Not likely that with a hand which couldn't overcall the first time, a partner who also couldn't(twice), and a probable misfit for the opponents ---that we would all of a sudden decide to stick our noses into it successfully.
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#16 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 05:49

Aquahombre, which do you think is more likely, a penalty double of 2C, or a hand like

AQxx
Q10xxx
KQx
x

Or would you not want to double 2C with this if it was takeout?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#17 User is offline   jmcw 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 07:14

View PostSteveMoe, on 2012-August-22, 23:16, said:

Would some overcall 1 with this hand?



You asked what expert standard would be.
Didn't see any of them suggest this :)
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#18 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 07:34

View Posthan, on 2012-August-28, 05:49, said:

Aquahombre, which do you think is more likely, a penalty double of 2C, or a hand like

AQxx
Q10xxx
KQx
x

Or would you not want to double 2C with this if it was takeout?

(1c) P (1H) P
(2C) P (P) ? to me.

The hand you give is more likely than a hand which would want to double underneath the club bidder for penalty. I wouldn't want to act at all with either of the two. If I wanted to double (with one more diamond, one less heart) I would have done so in the sandwich spot.
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#19 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 10:27

View PostPhil, on 2012-August-22, 09:00, said:

Some old timers might think this is a penalty x.

Yep, that's me. I must admit that is what I would tend to assume with a decent partner, too, unless we had discussed some alternative, but I see from this thread that I had better be careful about making that assumption...
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#20 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 10:51

View PostPhil, on 2012-August-22, 09:00, said:

4-5 blacks or so. I need a reason to bid here since I am entering a live auction.

Some old timers might think this is a penalty x.

Back when Phil posted, he was dealing with Steve's original auction, not the off-shoots. In that situation, 4-5 blacks with a very strong concentration of strength in this live auction would be what allowed old timers to get to be old. Penalty is just too remote as a possibility, and even if it should come up we would probably do fine defending at a buck a trick.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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