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Simple(?) Negative Double Question

Poll: Simple(?) Negative Double Question (26 member(s) have cast votes)

What is 3C?

  1. Long club suit, suggestion to play (may not have hearts) (2 votes [7.69%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

  2. Long club suit, suggestion to play (with 4 hearts) (1 votes [3.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.85%

  3. Game try in hearts (forcing) (14 votes [53.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 53.85%

  4. Game try in hearts (non-forcing) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Something else (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. Long club suit, suggestion to play, less than 4 hearts (9 votes [34.62%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 34.62%

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#1 User is offline   jeffford76 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 09:39



Assume that you have agreed to play 2/1 with negative doubles, but have had no further discussion about this sequence for the purposes of answering the question. (Although, to be clear, you are not playing non-forcing free bids.)

If you think something non-standard is better, please comment.
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#2 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 10:29

How about long clubs, to play, and DOES not have four hearts? I dislike using "other" for such a logical choice.

I guess some would say it isn't logical to bid at the 3-level with a hand unwilling to bid 2C; but, I was thinking our style where 2C is GF, not just forcing ---and we were able to distinguish between the two with the two different choices.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-August-28, 10:37

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#3 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 11:14

" After making a Negative Double, the ONLY forcing bid the doubler can make is a cue-bid of the opponents suit " .

by Lorne Russell ( OKBridge Manager , from his Double Trouble Series ) .

Thus, 3C is non-forcing .
Don Stenmark
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#4 User is offline   jeffford76 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 11:47

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-August-28, 10:29, said:

How about long clubs, to play, and DOES not have four hearts? I dislike using "other" for such a logical choice.


Ok, added.
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#5 User is offline   jonottawa 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 13:12

Option 6 is playable, but adds significant complexity (opener can no longer jump to 4 with a good hand and 4 .) (I think some of the people who voted for option 1 were really voting for option 6, but it might have not been added to the poll yet and I'll let them speak for themselves.)

Option 2 (& 1, as opposed to 6) is unplayable (no offense, awm.)

Option 3 is how I prefer to play (the initial double promises ) and I consider it standard.

Edited to account for the addition of option 6 (and my failure to take the wording of option 1 literally enough.)
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#6 User is offline   rwbarton 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 14:19

With long clubs and not 4 hearts wouldn't South have started with 3 (weak) or 2 then 3 (invitational) or 2 then some unambiguously strong bid (GF)? So I don't think it is the first option, assuming WJS in competition is standard.

I also don't understand how the second option is different from the fourth; if we have less than invitational values, why not pass 2? Are we worried about playing 2 in a 4-3 fit? We might not have a club fit either. It doesn't make sense to me to try to improve the partscore to a higher level when we might well be in a fit already. If the second option's "suggestion to play" implies invitational values, then it sounds a lot like a nonforcing game try in hearts, which is the fourth option.

I would take 3 to mean the same as in the auction 1 - 1 - 2 - 3. For me that might be a natural forcing game try in , a natural nonforcing game try in or a short suit game try in (partner points out that opener might have to raise on 3 in the original auction and therefore it would just be natural and forcing) depending on the partnership. I don't have a strong opinion about what is best, but standard would be the first.
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#7 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 16:26

View Postrwbarton, on 2012-August-28, 14:19, said:

I would take 3 to mean the same as in the auction 1 - 1 - 2 - 3.


Bingo.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#8 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 16:48

View Postjeffford76, on 2012-August-28, 09:39, said:




Also from Lorne's handout [ my post # 3 ] , is the following Neg-DBL example :

1C - ( 1S ) - DBL - ( p )
2H - ( p ) - 3D

Does it look familiar ??

He says: " Since a 2H bid ( by you ) would promise 5+ and 10+ hcp, the DBL says you have less than 10 hcp or only 4 or both .
The Neg-DBL of 1S usually shows at least 4 -- if you DON'T have you may have a LONG suit and be prepared to PULL his 2H to 3D " .

Does this look familiar ??
Don Stenmark
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( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#9 User is offline   jeffford76 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 17:08

View Postrwbarton, on 2012-August-28, 14:19, said:

I would take 3 to mean the same as in the auction 1 - 1 - 2 - 3.


This is what I had assumed as well, but a good local player surprised me by saying that it showed the long clubs hand, so I wanted to poll more widely.
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#10 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 18:16

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-August-28, 11:14, said:

" After making a Negative Double, the ONLY forcing bid the doubler can make is a cue-bid of the opponents suit " .

by Lorne Russell ( OKBridge Manager , from his Double Trouble Series ) .

Thus, 3C is non-forcing .


That depends whether you play negative free bids, doesn't it?
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#11 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2012-August-28, 18:27

Quote

but a good local player surprised me by saying that it showed the long clubs hand, so I wanted to poll more widely.


The long-clubs meaning is the one in all the old textbooks and most of the new ones. Twenty or even ten years ago I would have expected it to be the 90+% answer in this kind of a poll.

Having alternative ways to show the medium club hand (people playing 1S-pass-2C as GF and 1S-pass-3C as 8-10 with six clubs, for instance) is a very new trend. And from previous threads, "1D-1S-X is exactly the same as a 1H response" is a remarkably popular view on the forum, much more so than in real life anywhere I've been.
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#12 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-August-29, 15:24

View PostSiegmund, on 2012-August-28, 18:27, said:

The long-clubs meaning is the one in all the old textbooks and most of the new ones. Twenty or even ten years ago I would have expected it to be the 90+% answer in this kind of a poll.

Having alternative ways to show the medium club hand (people playing 1S-pass-2C as GF and 1S-pass-3C as 8-10 with six clubs, for instance) is a very new trend. And from previous threads, "1D-1S-X is exactly the same as a 1H response" is a remarkably popular view on the forum, much more so than in real life anywhere I've been.


Why are you including uncontested auctions in this thread about negative double treatments? Did you just forget the OP?

I prefer the negative double to guarantee 4+ hearts, and that systemically requires me to describe other hand types, like long, weak clubs, to pass initially (though some system of transfer advances is also very playable). Invitational + hands, of course, still bid naturally.
Chris Gibson
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#13 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2012-August-29, 16:28

Does openers 2h absolutely guarantee four hearts? I'd say maybe not -- some of the same hands that raise hearts on three uncontested might bid 2h here too.

This being the case, I don't think we are absolutely locked into playing in hearts. 3c should offer a strain.
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#14 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-August-29, 18:01

View Postjonottawa, on 2012-August-28, 13:12, said:

(I think some of the people who voted for option 1 were really voting for option 6, but it might have not been added to the poll yet and I'll let them speak for themselves.)
Yup.
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#15 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2012-August-29, 21:28

View Postthe hog, on 2012-August-28, 18:16, said:

That depends whether you play negative free bids, doesn't it?

Of course, it does. That is why this sentence was included in the OP:

View Postjeffford76, on 2012-August-28, 09:39, said:

(Although, to be clear, you are not playing non-forcing free bids.)


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#16 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2012-August-29, 21:55

Quote

Why are you including uncontested auctions in this thread about negative double treatments? Did you just forget the OP?


I was trying to draw a parallel. Hands that formerly always had to go through 1S-Pass-1NT-Pass-2any-3C, a few players are now experimenting with 1S-Pass-3C.

After 1D-(1S), minimal hands with long clubs formerly always had to double first and rebid clubs. I am presuming that the people who think negative doubles promise 4 hearts have an alternative treatment here -- 1D-(1S)-3C to show the 7-9ish hand with 6 clubs is a reasonable thing to do. But not something I've actually seen anyone do at the table, or advocate doing on here.

If you don't have any methods like that, I think that having X absolutely promise 4 hearts is on shaky ground. But it doesn't seem to worry forum posters.
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#17 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-August-30, 00:15

View Postrwbarton, on 2012-August-28, 14:19, said:

With long clubs and not 4 hearts wouldn't South have started with 3 (weak)


Just as an aside, I'd be surprised if many people have this available. I would certainly assume some kind of fit bid with a first-time partner.
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#18 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-30, 02:45

I don't know how this negative double style can work. Sure, if the opponents are silent ever after, then it probably works. But suppose partner has x AQxx AKxxxx xx. The auction goes:

1D - (1S) - Dbl - (3S)
??

What is he supposed to bid?

Even worse, suppose you have - J10xxx AQJxxx Ax. After the auction starts

1D - (1S) - Dbl - (4S)
??

is it safe to bid 5H?

I thought that currently everybody plays that double just shows 4+ hearts and the inability to bid 2H, but apparently there is still a significant minority plays the traditional Sputnik double. Is it playable? Do the problems I sketched above not occur in reality? And what do you do in practice when they do, just bid hearts and hope that partner didn't have some other hand?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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