BBO Discussion Forums: SAYC - ???? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

SAYC - ???? Bidding 2/1 w/ support to major...

#1 User is offline   RunemPard 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 544
  • Joined: 2012-January-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sweden
  • Interests:Bridge...some other things too I suppose.

Posted 2012-August-19, 15:47

Hello,

Just a topic regarding SAYC. Never really bothered to pay attention to this, but after noticing it, I thought I would ask here. Was playing a hand w/ a random BBO partner where the following auction occurred.

1-2
2-2

In my mind, this would be a stronger hand looking to play at the game level or higher with support. The BBO SAYC says that this is the 10-11 variant. And...

1-2
2-3

Would be a hand too good for a limit bid inviting to game. Possibly a nice 4 card support, useful singleton, or whatever.

So...I suppose my main thing to ask is...Why is it the way it is? My thinking was that if we may have a slam hand, we should keep the bidding lower. If we are playing J2NT, then I most likely have a singleton to show and would want to do so at a lower level? Typically when I bid 2/1 w/ support to partner's major then I am highly interested in trying game, even more so at IMPs.

Thanks for the help,

Don
The American Swede of BBF...I eat my meatballs with blueberries, okay?
Junior - Always looking for new partners to improve my play with..I have my fair share of brilliancy and blunders.

"Did your mother really marry a Mr Head and name her son Richard?" - jillybean
0

#2 User is offline   awm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,274
  • Joined: 2005-February-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Jose, California, USA

Posted 2012-August-19, 16:01

In SAYC, 1-3 is a limit raise with 3+ card support. There aren't any "invitational hands with fit" that start with a 2/1 bid.

The sequence 1-2-2-2 shows normally 2-card support with 10-11. You want to stop low on these hands, and 2 will often be a better partial than 2NT (especially from responder's side when he is weak in the fourth suit, spades). It would be silly to bid 3 and force yourself to play at the three-level in a seven card fit after all.

Of course, you need a way to show a game force with three-card support (1-2NT jacoby shows four). This hand starts with a 2/1 and bids 3 next.

While certainly there is some advantage in keeping the auction as low as possible on a fitting game force, SAYC prioritizes stopping low and in a good spot on invitational hands over starting your slam auctions at the two-level. Note that the hands that bid 1-2-2-2 are quite difficult to bid in (for example) 2/1 where you start with 1NT; your sequence will be 1-1NT-2, at which point you are forced to bid 2NT (since 2 is a weaker hand). At this point both partners have shown less about their shape (responder didn't show clubs, opener didn't really show diamonds since 1NT was forcing, responder didn't show his heart doubleton and never guaranteed/denied control of spades), and you are about to play an inferior partial if opener passes. It's really quite a big difference!
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
2

#3 User is online   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,634
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2012-August-19, 16:52

Adam, as mentioned before, is our resident expert on the Yellow Card. As always, he covers the question well.

Your ideas about what agreements a system should have are certainly valid for any regular partnership you develope. SAYC is for two people who will just read it and have something in common to use. "Why?" is not particularly important when we use SAYC for a pickup...or in an individual tourney where it is a "given". We just blindly do it and hope partner has read the Card also.

BTW: AWM makes an excellent point about hands where an invitation in NT will be declined ---the point being that the 5-2 major fit will often play better at the 2-level than 2NT will.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#4 User is offline   awm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,274
  • Joined: 2005-February-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Jose, California, USA

Posted 2012-August-20, 11:23

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-August-19, 16:52, said:

BTW: AWM makes an excellent point about hands where an invitation in NT will be declined ---the point being that the 5-2 major fit will often play better at the 2-level than 2NT will.


Further, when the invite is accepted, protecting our holding in the 4th suit from the lead may well win a game swing. The SAYC sequence allows us to play 3nt by opener when we prefer, whereas the 2/1 sequence obviously does not.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
0

#5 User is online   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,634
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2012-August-20, 11:35

View Postawm, on 2012-August-20, 11:23, said:

Further, when the invite is accepted, protecting our holding in the 4th suit from the lead may well win a game swing. The SAYC sequence allows us to play 3nt by opener when we prefer, whereas the 2/1 sequence obviously does not.

Yes, another subtle point. I assume I can quote you: "It is hard to play notrump from opener's side when the first response is a forcing NT."
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#6 User is offline   ArtK78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,940
  • Joined: 2004-September-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Galloway NJ USA
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
    Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.

Posted 2012-August-20, 12:11

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-August-20, 11:35, said:

Yes, another subtle point. I assume I can quote you: "It is hard to play notrump from opener's side when the first response is a forcing NT."

I would say that "hard" is an underbid.
0

#7 User is offline   Quartic 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 285
  • Joined: 2010-December-19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Walking, Climbing, Mathematics, Programming, Linux, Reading, Bridge.

Posted 2012-August-28, 04:46

View PostArtK78, on 2012-August-20, 12:11, said:

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-August-20, 11:35, said:

Yes, another subtle point. I assume I can quote you: "It is hard to play notrump from opener's side when the first response is a forcing NT."

I would say that "hard" is an underbid.

All you need is a lead out of turn! ;)
0

#8 User is offline   Quantumcat 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 944
  • Joined: 2007-April-11
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bathurst, Australia
  • Interests:Archery, classical guitar, piano, watercolour painting, programming, french

Posted 2012-August-28, 19:01

It is also common to play that 1 3 shows four hearts as well as an invitation. Therefore your second auction would show an invitation with four or more clubs and three hearts.
I Transfers
1

#9 User is online   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,634
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2012-August-28, 19:28

View Postawm, on 2012-August-19, 16:01, said:

In SAYC, 1-3 is a limit raise with 3+ card support. There aren't any "invitational hands with fit" that start with a 2/1 bid.


View PostQuantumcat, on 2012-August-28, 19:01, said:

It is also common to play that 1 3 shows four hearts as well as an invitation. Therefore your second auction would show an invitation with four or more clubs and three hearts.

Unless you are using the Yellow Card, which happens to be what they allegedly are doing in this thread.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#10 User is offline   Quantumcat 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 944
  • Joined: 2007-April-11
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bathurst, Australia
  • Interests:Archery, classical guitar, piano, watercolour painting, programming, french

Posted 2012-August-28, 19:40

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-August-28, 19:28, said:

Unless you are using the Yellow Card, which happens to be what they allegedly are doing in this thread.

Oh sorry, I don't even know what the Yellow Card is. I always thought SAYC and Standard were synonyms. I'll try not to reply to posts about SAYC in future, thanks.
I Transfers
1

#11 User is online   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,634
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2012-August-28, 19:54

Here is the SAYC System booklet.

The top portion explains its intended use.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users