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defending 4 spades

#1 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-August-15, 10:41



You lead J, declarer tries Q partner produces de King and declarer wins the ace.

After collecting 10 points on first trick declarer plays 6 from hand.

Plan your defence (partner will give count on this trick if you win)
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#2 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-15, 11:26

Interesting why declarer is playing a heart.
It doesn't look like they are ruffing, unless they are 6-3-0-4. More likely declarer is 6-1-2-4 and want us to help him with black suits. For example: AKJxxx Ax x KQTx. Both club and spade is fatal here. So... I take it and play a diamond. I can't see how that one could lose.
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#3 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-August-15, 12:59

My initial construction is that declarer has AKxxxx A6x void Kxxx. Duck the heart and wait for a club through. If he has this hand, however, he can't come to more than 5+2+2. If the hearts are A8x I will look silly if I duck this trick however.

If Declarer is 6=2=1=4, he would have taken a heart pitch immediately. I suppose 6323 is possible with so-so spades and a good club fragment - AJxxxx Ax xx KQJ? With this my play has no effect on the outcome - we just need partner to have spades at least as strong as KT9.

I play the 9. What's partner's count card?
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#4 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-15, 13:20

Quote

If Declarer is 6=2=1=4


Right. I think he is 6-3-0-4 then.

Quote

AKxxxx A6x void Kxxx


Bidding 2C with that is strange. 3S is impossible.
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#5 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-August-15, 15:16

Spoiler

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#6 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-August-15, 16:33

View PostFluffy, on 2012-August-15, 15:16, said:

Spoiler



I think I know who it is....

6223 obv! OK, 6205 is possible too. Need to think about this more.
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#7 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 01:37

View PostPhil, on 2012-August-15, 16:33, said:

I think I know who it is....

6223 obv! OK, 6205 is possible too. Need to think about this more.


declarer has 4+ clubsotherwise he would had bid 3 directly
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#8 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 03:29

I would win the heart, because it looks like declarer is 6304 initially, and if he is that shape with A86 I can't live with letting him make by ducking it, especially when it doesn't seem like there is any clear technical reason to let partner win the trick.

Now we know declarer is 6205 or 7204. If declarer is 6205, exiting with a low club is definitely percentage (if declarer has AKTxxx Ax void KJTxx and we had to exit with the queen of spades, too bad, we were never going to do that). It doesn't seem like a diamond letting declarer pitch 2 clubs is ever better than just playing a low club ourselves, and a diamond could be a disaster if declarer is 7204.

If declarer is 7204 it looks close but most of these hands are 4S bids anyway, so I'm not too concerned. However, if declarer is 7204, he probably has good clubs and a spade holding like AJxxxxx and is thinking that 6C could make opposite the right hand, so we should switch to a spade, paying off to a hand like KJTxxxx Ax void KQJx (which, again, shouldn't be possible). Even if a spade blows a trump trick opp Ax, we might get it back when declarer's clubs are not so robust.

Anyway, 6205 is just so much more likely that I am switching to a low club (obv the 7, to make it clear to partner to duck Qxx).
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#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 03:49

View Postrogerclee, on 2012-August-17, 03:29, said:

if declarer has AKTxxx Ax void KJTxx and we had to exit with the queen of spades, too bad, we were never going to do that


Why not? If we're sure that he's 2=0 in the red suits, he's never getting to dummy to take a trump finesse, so we're not worried about his spades being headed by AKJ. The trump exit costs when his trumps are something like KJ109xxx or AJ109x and he has only one club loser, but gains when his trumps are headed by AK but his clubs are weaker. To me that seems to be a guess, unless we can infer something from partner's heart cards.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#10 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 03:51

I cannot believe he is 6-5, strong enough to jump to 3S on the second round despite a void in partners suit, and did not bid 3C directly over 3N.

Could he be 5224 instead with very strong spades? AKJT9 Ax xx KJ9x.

Of course, in this case I am not sure that we can beat it. We would need two clubs a heart and a spade. In that case we need to play a low diamond back after the heart I think, this puts him in a tricky spot as if partner wins and plays a clubs he has to guess clubs and then guess spades. Instead if he wins the diamond ace he has to bring the clubs and the spades in for a total of two losers, with only two dummy entries, and he could easily go wrong.

If I play back a black suit I improve his odds hugely of bringing in those suits.
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#11 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 04:06

Quote

If declarer is 6205, exiting with a low club is definitely percentage


Why ? Discards doesn't help him at all. Against 6-2-0-5 I am happy to play a diamond and let him finesse the spades. Maybe he will fall for it. Let's say: AKJxxx Ax - KJTxx is what I am counting for.
7-2-0-4 is another story as here diamond could be fatal but it's so strange to bid 2C with 7 spades.

Quote

Could he be 5224 instead with very strong spades? AKJT9 Ax xx KJ9x.


Bidding 3S with that is insane. He has to have 6spades.
Maybe he didn't bid 3C because that would be game forcing for them and he is just shy of that hence his choice of 2C and 3S.
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#12 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 04:13

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-August-17, 04:06, said:

Why ? Discards doesn't help him at all. Against 6-2-0-5 I am happy to play a diamond and let him finesse the spades. Maybe he will fall for it. Let's say: AKJxxx Ax - KJTxx is what I am counting for.

My post was unclear, a diamond was never under consideration because it is such a ridiculous play if declarer is 7204. I meant that a club was better than a spade.
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#13 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 04:22

Quote

it is such a ridiculous play if declarer is 7204


True that but who bids 2C with 7-2-0-4 ?
I mean, I have no idea but nobody in Poland does that and I've never seen something like that by a good player.
We are risking playing in some 4-3/4-4 2C paritial having 8-9 spades on the side. Seems ridiculous :)
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#14 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 04:25

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-August-17, 04:06, said:

Why ? Discards doesn't help him at all. Against 6-2-0-5 I am happy to play a diamond and let him finesse the spades. Maybe he will fall for it. Let's say: AKJxxx Ax - KJTxx is what I am counting


You think the 5422 hand is insane, thne put up an example where you have a GF 3C bid. Bidding 2C on this hand might float opposite x xxxx xxxxx AQx, when you are pretty much cold for slam.
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#15 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 04:29

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-August-17, 04:22, said:

True that but who bids 2C with 7-2-0-4 ?
I mean, I have no idea but nobody in Poland does that and I've never seen something like that by a good player.
We are risking playing in some 4-3/4-4 2C paritial having 8-9 spades on the side. Seems ridiculous :)

FWIW I do not think it is insane if you think it is quite possible that you can make 6C opposite a club fit and a singleton spade. But, like I wrote, I am pretty much with you.
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#16 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 04:32

If he is 7204 with the club K, then he needs only to obtain one club trick by force to make (we know clubs are 3-3 and spades 2-2 so he will not lose control), its hard to believe that he will not achieve that. Also, he would have cashed a top spade before playing the heart, as there is a legitimate chance of being end played if you have a stiff spade and win the heart. Also, unless his clubs are good then the bidding is strange.
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#17 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 04:33

If he is 7204 with the club K, then he needs only to obtain one club trick by force to make (we know clubs are 3-3 and spades 2-2 so he will not lose control), its hard to believe that he will not achieve that. Also, he would have cashed a top spade before playing the heart, as there is a legitimate chance of being end played if you have a stiff spade and win the heart. Also, unless his clubs are good then the bidding is strange.
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#18 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 05:52

Quote

FWIW I do not think it is insane if you think it is quite possible that you can make 6C opposite a club fit and a singleton


Yeah ok. I can see that, especially at imps where maybe 2C if 4S doesn't make anyway isn't a disaster.

Quote

You think the 5422 hand is insane, thne put up an example where you have a GF 3C bid.


Right, my hand wasn't a good try. I just can't imagine anybody bidding 3S with 5 spades and I think everything ranging from 8-4 to 18hcp and 6-5 is more likely than that.
Back to reality though. There are only two shapes: 6-2-0-5 and 7-2-0-4 which are remotely likely. I didn't appreciate the latter possibility at first. I can see my mistake now.

I think I would play a spade now. It would hurt if partner insert a jack from Jxx thinking we have ATx/KTx and are looking for relatively safe return.
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#19 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 08:03

I think all the example hands suggested so far are impossible. It's inconceivable that he's 5224, but also inconceivable that he has a diamond void, a 2 bid, and a 3 bid.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#20 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 08:10

View PostFluffy, on 2012-August-17, 01:37, said:

declarer has 4+ clubsotherwise he would had bid 3 directly


Would he really jump to 3 with a crappy suit?
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