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Gazilli after 1H - 1S?

#1 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 10:24

I would to hear how people who play Gazilli after 1H - 1S do it. I worked out a structure that seems ok, but it is quite involved and very different from my 1H - 1NT and 1S - 1NT structures. I would like something easier, or at least more similar, but I don't know how to do it, the start 1H - 1S seems really difficult. I imagine that there are more people who have struggled with this, and I would like to hear their thoughts.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#2 User is offline   marcD 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 10:44

welcome to the club ! I find indeed Gazilli after 1-1 quite challenging as the responder is not limited .
I play Gazilli in 2 different partnerships
- one partner chose to stick to a basic approach (2 over 2 8+ then 2OM GF, 2NT inv, 3x 5-5 or strong one suiter) the rationnale is that the frequency is low and somehow we never had problem with this approach
- in my other partnership i started from awm approach. So now , 1NT is the relay , 2 natural, 2 3spades medium hand , 2 natural , 2 mini 4trumps (a tribute to my sef upbringing :)) , 2NT 6H4D medium hand, 3 6H3S medium hand, 3D 5-5 medium not forcing
over 1NT : 2 shows desire to play 2D or strong hand (opener bids 2 unless he has strong version), 2D shows 8-10 other bids are weak

would be happy sto share further details . PM me if interested
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#3 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 11:01

There are lots of simpler and better ways of doing it using an ART 1NT rebid. Obviously won't be similar to your other stuff though.
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#4 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 12:09

We happily use the Ambra version.
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#5 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 13:26

Looks like AMBRA is basically as simple and natural as possible, not that there is necessarily something wrong with that. I do have a few questions:

1. After 1H - 1S - 2C, what do you do with a weak 4-1-4-4 distribution? It says 2H shows 2, 2S shows 5+, 2NT shows 5+ diamonds and 3C shows 5+ clubs.

2. After 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S, how do you know what to do? Does opener pass with a 1-5-3-4 distribution? Or even a 0-5-4-4?

I've been thinking about playing 1H - 2S as weak, up to 7 HCP. Then 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S could show exactly a 5-card suit and short hearts, so responder must have at least one 4-card minor.

3. Do you really bid 1H - 1S - 2C - 2D - 2H with as many as 17-points? In standard you would bid 1H - 1S - 2C - 2red - 2S with a 3-5-1-4 and 15 or even a nice 14 and a 3-5-1-4 distribution, it seems strict to require 17 HCP for all actions besides 2H.

4. It looks like 1H - 1S - 3H can be bid with 3 spades. It seems to me that if you are willing to play something artificial, you should make some effort to show a good 3-6 hand. I understand that you can show 3-6 when you are 17+, but I would like to do so also when I'm 14-16 (and I'd like partner to be able to ask for shortness).
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#6 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 14:06

View Posthan, on 2012-August-07, 13:26, said:

Looks like AMBRA is basically as simple and natural as possible, not that there is necessarily something wrong with that. I do have a few questions:

1. After 1H - 1S - 2C, what do you do with a weak 4-1-4-4 distribution? It says 2H shows 2, 2S shows 5+, 2NT shows 5+ diamonds and 3C shows 5+ clubs.

It has not come up much, but 2 is the likely option as partner is probably strong if the opponents have not bid.

Quote

2. After 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S, how do you know what to do? Does opener pass with a 1-5-3-4 distribution? Or even a 0-5-4-4?

I've been thinking about playing 1H - 2S as weak, up to 7 HCP. Then 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S could show exactly a 5-card suit and short hearts, so responder must have at least one 4-card minor.

We assume that the sequence shows a weak two in spades and bid accordingly. We used to play 2 as a weak two and it came up rarely - now we play it as 5-5 minors (the same as over a 1 overcall) which is also rare but useful when it comes up.

Quote

3. Do you really bid 1H - 1S - 2C - 2D - 2H with as many as 17-points? In standard you would bid 1H - 1S - 2C - 2red - 2S with a 3-5-1-4 and 15 or even a nice 14 and a 3-5-1-4 distribution, it seems strict to require 17 HCP for all actions besides 2H.

No. Our limit is a very poor 16.

Quote

4. It looks like 1H - 1S - 3H can be bid with 3 spades. It seems to me that if you are willing to play something artificial, you should make some effort to show a good 3-6 hand. I understand that you can show 3-6 when you are 17+, but I would like to do so also when I'm 14-16 (and I'd like partner to be able to ask for shortness).

We would rebid 3 with three spades and 14-15, typically upgrading 16s. Although it seems useful to show the weaker 3-6 it's not something we've discussed.
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#7 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 14:09

Thanks Paul, and Mike too for many good ideas. There may yet be hope.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#8 User is offline   Flem72 

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Posted 2012-August-08, 11:11

View Posthan, on 2012-August-07, 14:09, said:

Thanks Paul, and Mike too for many good ideas. There may yet be hope.


did you see the other thread?

http://www.bridgebas...54859-gazzilli/
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#9 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-August-08, 14:53

We spent a long time discussing 1H-1S auctions recently and ended up switching to Kaplan inversion.
You may find it relevant that we play

1H - 2S as weak in the European style (about 4-8)

1H - 1NT (5+ spades)
2C = natural non-game force, balanced any range or a good hand with 3 spades
(1H-1NT-2NT = artificial FG either hearts or spades)

After 1H - 1NT - 2C we're playing
2D = 8-12 any
2H = weak
2S = weak with spades & clubs [it's an interesting cost-benefit analysis whether to play this as weak with the blacks or weak with either minor]
2NT+ NAT FG
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#10 User is offline   VMars 

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Posted 2012-August-08, 19:00

View PostmarcD, on 2012-August-07, 10:44, said:

welcome to the club ! I find indeed Gazilli after 1-1 quite challenging as the responder is not limited .
I play Gazilli in 2 different partnerships
- one partner chose to stick to a basic approach (2 over 2 8+ then 2OM GF, 2NT inv, 3x 5-5 or strong one suiter) the rationnale is that the frequency is low and somehow we never had problem with this approach
- in my other partnership i started from awm approach. So now , 1NT is the relay , 2 natural, 2 3spades medium hand , 2 natural , 2 mini 4trumps (a tribute to my sef upbringing :)) , 2NT 6H4D medium hand, 3 6H3S medium hand, 3D 5-5 medium not forcing
over 1NT : 2 shows desire to play 2D or strong hand (opener bids 2 unless he has strong version), 2D shows 8-10 other bids are weak

would be happy sto share further details . PM me if interested


My understanding was that in the one partnership where awm plays gazilli, he plays 1NT as a standard american response, and basically plays the ambra version of gazilli. (same as in the 1H-1NT auctions.)

They do something weird over auctions that start 1S, but I'm not sure I know exactly what that is (as in, "where it's from", not as in "I don't know what is played").

ETA the parenthetical.
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#11 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-08, 19:54

I have found AMBRA write-ups available having issues. Top Italian pairs certainly don't play the AMBRA way and I think for good reason.
If it starts:

1H - 1S
2C - ?

and you have a weak hand it seems natural to play 2N as minors (4-1-4-4/4-0-4-5/4-1-(5-3) and 3m as 6carder analogous to 1H - 1N and 1S - 1N.

Quote

2. After 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S, how do you know what to do? Does opener pass with a 1-5-3-4 distribution?


Pass. One needs to do the math but my feeling is responder has 6 spades most of the time as you only bid 2S having 5 spades with 5-1 majors. Even if it's not most of the time it's still tragic to bid if responder has 6S and finding a better contract is not guaranteed opposite 5S.

Quote

3. Do you really bid 1H - 1S - 2C - 2D - 2H with as many as 17-points?


No, of course not. 2D is 8+ GF opposite strong hand so any 15+ bids somethign different here.I mean 2H is 11-14 5H-4+C and other bids are strong. 15 is somewhat borderline I guess you can bid 2H with 15 but no way you do it with 16 let alone 17.

Quote

4. It looks like 1H - 1S - 3H can be bid with 3 spades


3H promises 7 hearts. At least Italian pairs play it this way. The whole point of Gazilli is to avoid jumping to 3 level with 6 carders and invitational hands.

As to the structure:
1H - 1S
2C - 2D

I can give you what Lauria - Versace and Sementa - Duboin play but those are relays for exact shape/strength. I think simple structure would do:

2S - 15+pc, 3S
2N - balanced without 3S (could be 2-5-(4-3) if localization is right)
3C - 5H-4C
3D - 5H-4D
3H - 6H without 3S or 4m
3S - 4S-5H
3N - 18-19 2-5-3-3

It seems like there is too much space as you still have some after 2N.
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 01:19

NAE nor even someone that plays Gaz but the simplest solution to wanting a system over 1 similar to over 1 is literally to play the same system. That is, a 1NT response is GF with spades and a 1 response becomes the forcing NT. Over this, 1NT can now be Gaz in exactly the same style that is played over 1 - 1NT, with the exception that it works better if you also play a diamond-spade inversion, so 2 from either player in these auctions shows spades and 1 - 1; 1NT is diamonds or strong. This is by far the simplest solution and one that I am mildly surprised is not used more often. A second possibility to solve these issues simply is to use transfers after 1 - 1 but this was not the question asked and you probably already know the options in this category rather well.
(-: Zel :-)
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#13 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 01:36

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-August-08, 19:54, said:

View Posthan, on 2012-August-07, 13:26, said:

4. It looks like 1H - 1S - 3H can be bid with 3 spades.

3H promises 7 hearts. At least Italian pairs play it this way. The whole point of Gazilli is to avoid jumping to 3 level with 6 carders and invitational hands.

I thought that this was the whole point of Gazzilli! :)

So how do they cope with an invitational hand with six hearts? If you put them through Gazzilli then you struggle to cope with both invitational and game-forcing hands - is 1H-1S-2C-2D-3H forcing?. If not, you seem to be playing very wide range rebids in an auction like 1H-1S-2H which seems to lose a lot of the benefit of the convention.
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#14 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 01:44

Quote

is 1H-1S-2C-2D-3H forcing?


It's forcing. 15pc + 8pc = game for them. Their system is such that you have two ranges for gf hands: (15)16-18 and 19-21 and can relay for shape/range. If you have 14, you bid 2H if you have 15 you are in GF auction opposite 8+. If you have 7 hearts and invite (or some 6-4 with KQJTxx or w/e) you bid 3H after 1S.

I guess it may not be very good at matchpoints to automatically be in game with 15-8 and 6hearts but you can tighten 2D relay up if you are worried about it (and precision have the same problem anyway).
If it goes:
1H - 1S
2C - 2H
You can still decide if you have an invite opposite 5-7, most of the time not really and you play level lower than you otherwise would.

Also, to make the system complete:

1H - 1S
2C - 2D
2H - 3H = invite, so:

1H - 1S
2C - 3H = slam try with support (game hand bid 2D and then 4H after weak response)
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#15 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 04:52

Thanks for the suggestions everybody!

For the moment I'm going with some ideas of mickyb, they indeed look good and simple. I hope I can convince my partner to play this.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#16 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 05:12

"MickyB" and "simple" are two words you don't often see in the same sentence.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#17 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 06:38

He suggested many variations, ranging from very simple to very involved. I went with the second most simple. I'm now working with a 1NT rebid that is either 2533 11-13, 16-17 balanced, 4+ diamonds 11-18, or 4+ clubs 16-18. Apparently you can put in more stuff if you really want to. To me it's already surprising that you can stack 4 different hand types without creating huge problems later, but with the follow-ups suggested by mickyb it does seem quite simple.

Hey, another one of those sentences!
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#18 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 06:41

View Postgnasher, on 2012-August-09, 05:12, said:

"MickyB" and "simple" are two words you don't often see in the same sentence.

Except from sasioc.
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#19 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 12:19

View Postgnasher, on 2012-August-09, 05:12, said:

"MickyB" and "simple" are two words you don't often see in the same sentence.


Why? Surely it is also possible to include the word "not".
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#20 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 12:30

Quote

I'm now working with a 1NT rebid that is either 2533 11-13, 16-17 balanced, 4+ diamonds 11-18, or 4+ clubs 16-18.


I always thought those are unplayable at matchpoints because you end up in 4-3 minor fit instead 1NT on many sequences. Am I missing something here ? Also does it mean you automatically bid 2S with 3-5-(2-3) ?
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