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Gazilli after 1H - 1S?

#1 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 10:24

I would to hear how people who play Gazilli after 1H - 1S do it. I worked out a structure that seems ok, but it is quite involved and very different from my 1H - 1NT and 1S - 1NT structures. I would like something easier, or at least more similar, but I don't know how to do it, the start 1H - 1S seems really difficult. I imagine that there are more people who have struggled with this, and I would like to hear their thoughts.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#2 User is offline   marcD 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 10:44

welcome to the club ! I find indeed Gazilli after 1-1 quite challenging as the responder is not limited .
I play Gazilli in 2 different partnerships
- one partner chose to stick to a basic approach (2 over 2 8+ then 2OM GF, 2NT inv, 3x 5-5 or strong one suiter) the rationnale is that the frequency is low and somehow we never had problem with this approach
- in my other partnership i started from awm approach. So now , 1NT is the relay , 2 natural, 2 3spades medium hand , 2 natural , 2 mini 4trumps (a tribute to my sef upbringing :)) , 2NT 6H4D medium hand, 3 6H3S medium hand, 3D 5-5 medium not forcing
over 1NT : 2 shows desire to play 2D or strong hand (opener bids 2 unless he has strong version), 2D shows 8-10 other bids are weak

would be happy sto share further details . PM me if interested
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#3 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 11:01

There are lots of simpler and better ways of doing it using an ART 1NT rebid. Obviously won't be similar to your other stuff though.
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#4 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 12:09

We happily use the Ambra version.
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#5 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 13:26

Looks like AMBRA is basically as simple and natural as possible, not that there is necessarily something wrong with that. I do have a few questions:

1. After 1H - 1S - 2C, what do you do with a weak 4-1-4-4 distribution? It says 2H shows 2, 2S shows 5+, 2NT shows 5+ diamonds and 3C shows 5+ clubs.

2. After 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S, how do you know what to do? Does opener pass with a 1-5-3-4 distribution? Or even a 0-5-4-4?

I've been thinking about playing 1H - 2S as weak, up to 7 HCP. Then 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S could show exactly a 5-card suit and short hearts, so responder must have at least one 4-card minor.

3. Do you really bid 1H - 1S - 2C - 2D - 2H with as many as 17-points? In standard you would bid 1H - 1S - 2C - 2red - 2S with a 3-5-1-4 and 15 or even a nice 14 and a 3-5-1-4 distribution, it seems strict to require 17 HCP for all actions besides 2H.

4. It looks like 1H - 1S - 3H can be bid with 3 spades. It seems to me that if you are willing to play something artificial, you should make some effort to show a good 3-6 hand. I understand that you can show 3-6 when you are 17+, but I would like to do so also when I'm 14-16 (and I'd like partner to be able to ask for shortness).
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#6 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 14:06

View Posthan, on 2012-August-07, 13:26, said:

Looks like AMBRA is basically as simple and natural as possible, not that there is necessarily something wrong with that. I do have a few questions:

1. After 1H - 1S - 2C, what do you do with a weak 4-1-4-4 distribution? It says 2H shows 2, 2S shows 5+, 2NT shows 5+ diamonds and 3C shows 5+ clubs.

It has not come up much, but 2 is the likely option as partner is probably strong if the opponents have not bid.

Quote

2. After 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S, how do you know what to do? Does opener pass with a 1-5-3-4 distribution? Or even a 0-5-4-4?

I've been thinking about playing 1H - 2S as weak, up to 7 HCP. Then 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S could show exactly a 5-card suit and short hearts, so responder must have at least one 4-card minor.

We assume that the sequence shows a weak two in spades and bid accordingly. We used to play 2 as a weak two and it came up rarely - now we play it as 5-5 minors (the same as over a 1 overcall) which is also rare but useful when it comes up.

Quote

3. Do you really bid 1H - 1S - 2C - 2D - 2H with as many as 17-points? In standard you would bid 1H - 1S - 2C - 2red - 2S with a 3-5-1-4 and 15 or even a nice 14 and a 3-5-1-4 distribution, it seems strict to require 17 HCP for all actions besides 2H.

No. Our limit is a very poor 16.

Quote

4. It looks like 1H - 1S - 3H can be bid with 3 spades. It seems to me that if you are willing to play something artificial, you should make some effort to show a good 3-6 hand. I understand that you can show 3-6 when you are 17+, but I would like to do so also when I'm 14-16 (and I'd like partner to be able to ask for shortness).

We would rebid 3 with three spades and 14-15, typically upgrading 16s. Although it seems useful to show the weaker 3-6 it's not something we've discussed.
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#7 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-07, 14:09

Thanks Paul, and Mike too for many good ideas. There may yet be hope.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#8 User is offline   Flem72 

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Posted 2012-August-08, 11:11

View Posthan, on 2012-August-07, 14:09, said:

Thanks Paul, and Mike too for many good ideas. There may yet be hope.


did you see the other thread?

http://www.bridgebas...54859-gazzilli/
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#9 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-August-08, 14:53

We spent a long time discussing 1H-1S auctions recently and ended up switching to Kaplan inversion.
You may find it relevant that we play

1H - 2S as weak in the European style (about 4-8)

1H - 1NT (5+ spades)
2C = natural non-game force, balanced any range or a good hand with 3 spades
(1H-1NT-2NT = artificial FG either hearts or spades)

After 1H - 1NT - 2C we're playing
2D = 8-12 any
2H = weak
2S = weak with spades & clubs [it's an interesting cost-benefit analysis whether to play this as weak with the blacks or weak with either minor]
2NT+ NAT FG
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#10 User is offline   VMars 

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Posted 2012-August-08, 19:00

View PostmarcD, on 2012-August-07, 10:44, said:

welcome to the club ! I find indeed Gazilli after 1-1 quite challenging as the responder is not limited .
I play Gazilli in 2 different partnerships
- one partner chose to stick to a basic approach (2 over 2 8+ then 2OM GF, 2NT inv, 3x 5-5 or strong one suiter) the rationnale is that the frequency is low and somehow we never had problem with this approach
- in my other partnership i started from awm approach. So now , 1NT is the relay , 2 natural, 2 3spades medium hand , 2 natural , 2 mini 4trumps (a tribute to my sef upbringing :)) , 2NT 6H4D medium hand, 3 6H3S medium hand, 3D 5-5 medium not forcing
over 1NT : 2 shows desire to play 2D or strong hand (opener bids 2 unless he has strong version), 2D shows 8-10 other bids are weak

would be happy sto share further details . PM me if interested


My understanding was that in the one partnership where awm plays gazilli, he plays 1NT as a standard american response, and basically plays the ambra version of gazilli. (same as in the 1H-1NT auctions.)

They do something weird over auctions that start 1S, but I'm not sure I know exactly what that is (as in, "where it's from", not as in "I don't know what is played").

ETA the parenthetical.
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#11 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-08, 19:54

I have found AMBRA write-ups available having issues. Top Italian pairs certainly don't play the AMBRA way and I think for good reason.
If it starts:

1H - 1S
2C - ?

and you have a weak hand it seems natural to play 2N as minors (4-1-4-4/4-0-4-5/4-1-(5-3) and 3m as 6carder analogous to 1H - 1N and 1S - 1N.

Quote

2. After 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S, how do you know what to do? Does opener pass with a 1-5-3-4 distribution?


Pass. One needs to do the math but my feeling is responder has 6 spades most of the time as you only bid 2S having 5 spades with 5-1 majors. Even if it's not most of the time it's still tragic to bid if responder has 6S and finding a better contract is not guaranteed opposite 5S.

Quote

3. Do you really bid 1H - 1S - 2C - 2D - 2H with as many as 17-points?


No, of course not. 2D is 8+ GF opposite strong hand so any 15+ bids somethign different here.I mean 2H is 11-14 5H-4+C and other bids are strong. 15 is somewhat borderline I guess you can bid 2H with 15 but no way you do it with 16 let alone 17.

Quote

4. It looks like 1H - 1S - 3H can be bid with 3 spades


3H promises 7 hearts. At least Italian pairs play it this way. The whole point of Gazilli is to avoid jumping to 3 level with 6 carders and invitational hands.

As to the structure:
1H - 1S
2C - 2D

I can give you what Lauria - Versace and Sementa - Duboin play but those are relays for exact shape/strength. I think simple structure would do:

2S - 15+pc, 3S
2N - balanced without 3S (could be 2-5-(4-3) if localization is right)
3C - 5H-4C
3D - 5H-4D
3H - 6H without 3S or 4m
3S - 4S-5H
3N - 18-19 2-5-3-3

It seems like there is too much space as you still have some after 2N.
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 01:19

NAE nor even someone that plays Gaz but the simplest solution to wanting a system over 1 similar to over 1 is literally to play the same system. That is, a 1NT response is GF with spades and a 1 response becomes the forcing NT. Over this, 1NT can now be Gaz in exactly the same style that is played over 1 - 1NT, with the exception that it works better if you also play a diamond-spade inversion, so 2 from either player in these auctions shows spades and 1 - 1; 1NT is diamonds or strong. This is by far the simplest solution and one that I am mildly surprised is not used more often. A second possibility to solve these issues simply is to use transfers after 1 - 1 but this was not the question asked and you probably already know the options in this category rather well.
(-: Zel :-)
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#13 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 01:36

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-August-08, 19:54, said:

View Posthan, on 2012-August-07, 13:26, said:

4. It looks like 1H - 1S - 3H can be bid with 3 spades.

3H promises 7 hearts. At least Italian pairs play it this way. The whole point of Gazilli is to avoid jumping to 3 level with 6 carders and invitational hands.

I thought that this was the whole point of Gazzilli! :)

So how do they cope with an invitational hand with six hearts? If you put them through Gazzilli then you struggle to cope with both invitational and game-forcing hands - is 1H-1S-2C-2D-3H forcing?. If not, you seem to be playing very wide range rebids in an auction like 1H-1S-2H which seems to lose a lot of the benefit of the convention.
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#14 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 01:44

Quote

is 1H-1S-2C-2D-3H forcing?


It's forcing. 15pc + 8pc = game for them. Their system is such that you have two ranges for gf hands: (15)16-18 and 19-21 and can relay for shape/range. If you have 14, you bid 2H if you have 15 you are in GF auction opposite 8+. If you have 7 hearts and invite (or some 6-4 with KQJTxx or w/e) you bid 3H after 1S.

I guess it may not be very good at matchpoints to automatically be in game with 15-8 and 6hearts but you can tighten 2D relay up if you are worried about it (and precision have the same problem anyway).
If it goes:
1H - 1S
2C - 2H
You can still decide if you have an invite opposite 5-7, most of the time not really and you play level lower than you otherwise would.

Also, to make the system complete:

1H - 1S
2C - 2D
2H - 3H = invite, so:

1H - 1S
2C - 3H = slam try with support (game hand bid 2D and then 4H after weak response)
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#15 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 04:52

Thanks for the suggestions everybody!

For the moment I'm going with some ideas of mickyb, they indeed look good and simple. I hope I can convince my partner to play this.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#16 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 05:12

"MickyB" and "simple" are two words you don't often see in the same sentence.
A poster: How would you continue?
JAllerton: I continue by inspecting the vulnerability and form of scoring. Then I remind myself of what methods I am playing.
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#17 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 06:38

He suggested many variations, ranging from very simple to very involved. I went with the second most simple. I'm now working with a 1NT rebid that is either 2533 11-13, 16-17 balanced, 4+ diamonds 11-18, or 4+ clubs 16-18. Apparently you can put in more stuff if you really want to. To me it's already surprising that you can stack 4 different hand types without creating huge problems later, but with the follow-ups suggested by mickyb it does seem quite simple.

Hey, another one of those sentences!
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#18 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 06:41

View Postgnasher, on 2012-August-09, 05:12, said:

"MickyB" and "simple" are two words you don't often see in the same sentence.

Except from sasioc.
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#19 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 12:19

View Postgnasher, on 2012-August-09, 05:12, said:

"MickyB" and "simple" are two words you don't often see in the same sentence.


Why? Surely it is also possible to include the word "not".
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#20 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-09, 12:30

Quote

I'm now working with a 1NT rebid that is either 2533 11-13, 16-17 balanced, 4+ diamonds 11-18, or 4+ clubs 16-18.


I always thought those are unplayable at matchpoints because you end up in 4-3 minor fit instead 1NT on many sequences. Am I missing something here ? Also does it mean you automatically bid 2S with 3-5-(2-3) ?
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