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Fielded misbids in the EBU

#1 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 03:15

In another thread, I criticised the EBU's approach to fielded psyches, fielded misbids, and undisclosed agreements on the grounds that the artificial scores produced could be unfair. Bluejak said that it's hard to rebut such theoretical arguments and he would like to discuss actual hands insterad. So, here is an actual hand:

4 went one down after a heart lead.

Assume that the written agreement is hearts + diamonds, East misbid thinking that it showed hearts + clubs, and West fielded the misbid (see edit below). As I understand it, in the EBU the director would award an artificial score of 60-40 (or possibly less for the offending side), because there was a concealed implicit agreement that 2 showed hearts and a minor.

If NS had received the correct explanation, the auction, play and result would have been exactly the same. If I were king for a day, the table result would stand, and EW would receive a procedural penalty for having a CPU.

In the EBU, NS get an underserved 60%.

Edit: For the purpose of this discussion, assume that at the end of the hand West said "I would have bid 5, but I didn't believe he had diamonds - he often gets our two-suited agreements wrong."

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2012-July-25, 04:19

... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#2 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 03:28

I agree with your argument. But I wouldn't say W has fielded the misbid on that hand. Why play 5D when you can play 4H?

Are you suggesting the TD should treat fielded misbids/psyches like UI cases - analyse the hand assuming the fielder does the legally-correct thing, and then work out what result would likely occur, reserving ArtAS for when the fielded misbid/psyche messes up the bidding so much we couldn't determine how the actual auction/play would go, or the possibilities are too numerous to weight (a la L12C1d)? That seems sensible enough but it would be interesting to hear from a English TD in-the-know as to why this currently isn't the case.

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#3 User is offline   c_corgi 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 03:36

 ahydra, on 2012-July-25, 03:28, said:

I agree with your argument. But I wouldn't say W has fielded the misbid on that hand. Why play 5D when you can play 4H?

ahydra


Attempting to play 4H may be fair enough, but selling out to 4S on the presumed double fit is fielding.
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#4 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 03:42

Some people think it should matter that, if West had not fielded the misbid, N/S would have been +300, and that they "deserve" that as a logical consequence of the misbid. To them, perhaps the EBU treatment is at least a little bit better in re: convention disruption and miraculous coincidences than ACBL.

Why 300? Because maybe bidding 4H rather than 5D is somewhat plausible; but when 4S comes back around, West would certainly bid 5D, and would end in 5HX absent whatever might have prompted the fielding.

Edit: this post was in response to the original "OP", where no CPU was described.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-July-25, 06:17

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#5 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 04:11

 ahydra, on 2012-July-25, 03:28, said:

Are you suggesting the TD should treat fielded misbids/psyches like UI cases - analyse the hand assuming the fielder does the legally-correct thing, and then work out what result would likely occur

No. I'm suggesting that the TD should treat fielded misbids/psyches like MI/CPU cases, and also follow Law 12C1D. That is, he should:
- Analyse the hand assuming the fielder had given the legally correct explanation ("Ostensibly hearts and diamonds but in practice he also often has hearts and clubs").
- Attempt to assign a bridge score or a set of weighted bridge scores.
- If, and only if, the possibilities are numerous or not obvious, award an artificial score.

aguahombre said:

Some people think it should matter that, if West had not fielded the misbid, N/S would have been +300, and that they "deserve" that as a logical consequence of the misbid.

Some people may think that, but I am not one of them, and it's not supported by the Laws. This is, I think, what Bluejak was talking about in the other thread when he referred to "adjusting from after the infraction".

The infraction is either (a) using an implicit agreement which is concealed, or (b) concealing an implicit agreement. The adjustment should reflect what would have happened without the infraction, which is either (a) the result had EW not used a concealed agreement, or (b) the result had EW used the agreement but not concealed it.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#6 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 04:39

I do not like the EBU approach to fielded misbids and I think the automatic adjustment should only apply when there is evidence for an undislosed partnership understanding that is not a permitted agreement. (For instance a 3C overcall that coubld be clubs or the red suits).

The argument for the EBU approach is based on Law 40A3 and Law 12C1d). Law 40A3 can be read to say that the "misbid" (the call about which there is a concealed partnership understanding) should not be made and the adjustment should be on the basis that the call was not made. Law 12C1(d) is used to give an artificial adjustment because it is deemed that the possible outcomes on the basis that the call was not made are "numerous and not obvious". (This route to awarding an artificial score was not available before 2007 although the "fielded misbid" regulation was.)

In this example, if we apply Law 40A3 and Law 12C1c), we would adjust to the outcome with various possibilities for East's first call. If North-South would always reach 4 whatever East does, there should be no adjustment. If North-South would always reach 4 if East overcalls but might play in 3 if East passes then the adjustment should include a proportion of 3=.
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#7 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 06:53

 c_corgi, on 2012-July-25, 03:36, said:

Attempting to play 4H may be fair enough, but selling out to 4S on the presumed double fit is fielding.


 aguahombre, on 2012-July-25, 03:42, said:

Why 300? Because maybe bidding 4H rather than 5D is somewhat plausible; but when 4S comes back around, West would certainly bid 5D, and would end in 5HX absent whatever might have prompted the fielding.

Interesting. I don't see why it is so certain that EW would take a sac over 4. Surely there are enough values here to suspect that 4 may not make.
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#8 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 07:28

 billw55, on 2012-July-25, 06:53, said:

Interesting. I don't see why it is so certain that EW would take a sac over 4. Surely there are enough values here to suspect that 4 may not make.


Those were my thoughts exactly. But then again, the point is "suppose West had fielded the misbid" - we should pretty much ignore most of the auction given, which is a probably a good idea because people will point out that N would normally open 3S... oops :P

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#9 User is offline   c_corgi 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 08:34

 billw55, on 2012-July-25, 06:53, said:

Interesting. I don't see why it is so certain that EW would take a sac over 4. Surely there are enough values here to suspect that 4 may not make.


You have:
1. A known 10 card diamond fit
2. A likely 10 card spade fit for the opponents
3. A known double fit with the K of parter's suit

5D over 4S seems automatic in these circumstances. I suspect selling out to 4S would have fewer advocates if partner had been dealt x AQJxx AKxxx xx, where at least one of 4S and 5D rates to make.



 ahydra, on 2012-July-25, 07:28, said:

Those were my thoughts exactly. But then again, the point is "suppose West had fielded the misbid" - we should pretty much ignore most of the auction given, which is a probably a good idea because people will point out that N would normally open 3S... oops :P

ahydra


Why would we ignore the rest of the auction? North is entitled to open 1S if he wants to. He does not lose any right to rectification as a result.
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#10 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 09:33

 c_corgi, on 2012-July-25, 08:34, said:

You have:
1. A known 10 card diamond fit
2. A likely 10 card spade fit for the opponents
3. A known double fit with the K of parter's suit

5D over 4S seems automatic in these circumstances.

Really? If east and south trade the minor suit T87s, there is no misbid but 4 is still down.
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#11 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 09:43

 billw55, on 2012-July-25, 09:33, said:

Really? If east and south trade the minor suit T87s, there is no misbid but 4 is still down.

Give that example to West for his appeal. He probably would have a hard time finding one.
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#12 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 12:03

I can agree that taking the dive is a logical alternative. Just not that it is near 100%.
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#13 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 17:55

 gnasher, on 2012-July-25, 03:15, said:

In another thread, I criticised the EBU's approach to fielded psyches, fielded misbids, and undisclosed agreements on the grounds that the artificial scores produced could be unfair. Bluejak said that it's hard to rebut such theoretical arguments and he would like to discuss actual hands insterad. So, here is an actual hand:

4 went one down after a heart lead.

Assume that the written agreement is hearts + diamonds, East misbid thinking that it showed hearts + clubs, and West fielded the misbid (see edit below). As I understand it, in the EBU the director would award an artificial score of 60-40 (or possibly less for the offending side), because there was a concealed implicit agreement that 2 showed hearts and a minor.

If NS had received the correct explanation, the auction, play and result would have been exactly the same. If I were king for a day, the table result would stand, and EW would receive a procedural penalty for having a CPU.

That is exactly what is wrong: if there had been no fielded misbid the auction woud not have been the same. The 2 bid was illegal and an adjustment would have to be made from



It is this totally wrong approach to fielded misbids that is so worrying. When there is a breach of Law 40A3, that makes the actual misbid the illegal bid - read the law - so the adjustment is on the presumption that the illegal call was not made.
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#14 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 23:25

 bluejak, on 2012-July-25, 17:55, said:

That is exactly what is wrong: if there had been no fielded misbid the auction woud not have been the same. The 2 bid was illegal and an adjustment would have to be made from



It is this totally wrong approach to fielded misbids that is so worrying. When there is a breach of Law 40A3, that makes the actual misbid the illegal bid - read the law - so the adjustment is on the presumption that the illegal call was not made.

Supposing that we accepted this interpretation of the Laws, the EBU solution would *still* be unfair. Regardless of the auction, once North opens 1, it is almost certain that NS will reach 4 and go one down. The EBU's approach still gives NS an undeserved good score.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#15 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 23:29

Are RAs supposed to be in the business of deciding what score a contestant "deserves"?
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#16 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 00:14

 blackshoe, on 2012-July-25, 23:29, said:

Are RAs supposed to be in the business of deciding what score a contestant "deserves"?

No, but they are, or should be, in the business of making rules that treat the contestants fairly, restore equity following an infraction, and don't arbitrarily add matchpoints to a non-offenders' score.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#17 User is offline   campboy 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 03:17

 gnasher, on 2012-July-25, 04:11, said:

Some people may think that, but I am not one of them, and it's not supported by the Laws. This is, I think, what Bluejak was talking about in the other thread when he referred to "adjusting from after the infraction".

The infraction is either (a) using an implicit agreement which is concealed, or (b) concealing an implicit agreement. The adjustment should reflect what would have happened without the infraction, which is either (a) the result had EW not used a concealed agreement, or (b) the result had EW used the agreement but not concealed it.

I don't think it is as clear as that. The relevant law says that you may make any call unless it is "based on an undisclosed partnership understanding". Which call is based on a UPU? I would argue that West's decision to pass out 4 was based on the UPU -- he passed because of the UPU (and in this hypothetical scenario, admits that). On the other hand, the basis of East's 2 bid was that he had forgotten.

As a side issue, isn't the whole point of playing the cue as a specific two suits that you know what to do with West's hand here? If West isn't going to sac here they might as well play Michaels'.

[edited to correct "concealed" to "undisclosed"]
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#18 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 03:38

 bluejak, on 2012-July-25, 17:55, said:

The 2 bid was illegal


I'm not normally one to argue with England's top TD, but I thought there was no law against misbidding? The call that is illegal is the one that fields the misbid, i.e. West's pass of 4S (if you believe it as such).

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#19 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 04:32

 ahydra, on 2012-July-26, 03:38, said:

I'm not normally one to argue with England's top TD, but I thought there was no law against misbidding? The call that is illegal is the one that fields the misbid, i.e. West's pass of 4S (if you believe it as such).

40A3: A player may make any call or play without prior announcement provided that such call or play is not based on an undisclosed partnership understanding (see Law 40C1).

This can be read that the player may not make this call since it is based on an UPU. The fielding is taken to confirm that such an UPU exists. That is my understanding for the basis of the EBU regulation.
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#20 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 05:01

 ahydra, on 2012-July-26, 03:38, said:

I'm not normally one to argue with England's top TD

Have I missed a post from Max Bavin here? :)
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