# BBO Discussion Forums: Some points but no fit - BBO Discussion Forums

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## Some points but no fit How do you think this should be bid?

### #1sasioc

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Posted 2012-July-24, 06:02

This hand came up at a duplicate I played in last night and I still have no idea how I'm supposed to bid it. As I'm not sure I like that many of my choices I'm going to give both hands and simply ask how you think the auction should proceed. I was playing with my partner for the first time and had agreed 2/1 with some gadgets but had no detailed understandings about, well, anything, and would appreciate it if people tried to give auctions that don't involve lots of complex agreements!

Spoiler

Edited to make South dealer.
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### #2RunemPard

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Posted 2012-July-24, 06:38

I am not sure if I figured this out correctly, being that my math is horrible. I simply wrote down the possible splits in hearts to see the odds. I came to a 50/50 chance that the J will drop with 64 possible splits? As long as 6NT is declared from S, or the K of C is before S, it will make if the heart J drops. There may also be an entry problem, but I think it does not matter much. (Edit: Entries not really a problem...since if they hold off on the A of D we get winners anyways.)

How to get there is a good question though, and at what scoring methods we even want to be there.

The 3 heart jump would interest me though. It could be a more distributional or trick count jump as it is here, but it could also be a pure HCP jump. Do we really want to put all of our money on the 1st option and ignore the 2nd? I think the best thing to do at this point is to start with 4D IMO.
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Junior - Always looking for new partners to improve my play with..I have my fair share of brilliancy and blunders.

"Did your mother really marry a Mr Head and name her son Richard?" - jillybean
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### #3hrothgar

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Posted 2012-July-24, 06:45

sasioc, on 2012-July-24, 06:02, said:

This hand came up at a duplicate I played in last night and I still have no idea how I'm supposed to bid it. As I'm not sure I like that many of my choices I'm going to give both hands and simply ask how you think the auction should proceed. I was playing with my partner for the first time and had agreed 2/1 with some gadgets but had no detailed understandings about, well, anything, and would appreciate it if people tried to give auctions that don't involve lots of complex agreements!

Spoiler

One minor suggestion: In general, I think that people assume that the dealer is sitting South rather than North.

From my perspective, the North hand is not strong enough for a 3H rebid. Its a great suit, the spade bid means that the stiff King of Spades is pulling some weight. but even so, I don't think that the hand is strong enough for 3H. (If you're willing to GF with this ahnd opposite any response, you might have been better off preempting)

I personally like the following auction

1 - 1
2 - 3
3 - 3N
Pass

Arguable, North might prefer 4H to pass however, I think pass stands out (especially at MP)
Alderaan delenda est
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### #4sasioc

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Posted 2012-July-24, 06:56

hrothgar, on 2012-July-24, 06:45, said:

One minor suggestion: In general, I think that people assume that the dealer is sitting South rather than North.

Thanks, have edited

hrothgar, on 2012-July-24, 06:45, said:

(If you're willing to GF with this ahnd opposite any response, you might have been better off preempting)

Sorry if I've misunderstood but 3 doesn't gf opposite any response. It's not forcing, just shows a decentish 6 card suit and somewhere around 16-18 points if the bidder has no additional distributional features.
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### #5RunemPard

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Posted 2012-July-24, 06:58

As far as how me and my regular partner would bid this...

1-1
2-3
3-3N/4 not really sure if I would be interested or not...3H typically shows weaker with very good hearts...too good for 10-14 TP 2H opening.
4N-5
5/6/6/NT although I think playing diamonds actually lowers the slams odds?

1: 11-20 (5+H)
--1: 6+ (4+S)
2: 15-17(18) TP (6+H)
--3: GF normally natural or fit
3: Very good hearts
--4: 5/5 or greater with longer spades
4N: 1430 RKC s
--5: 0 or 3 keys

In this auction...we also wrong sided the NT slam.
The American Swede of BBF...I eat my meatballs with blueberries, okay?
Junior - Always looking for new partners to improve my play with..I have my fair share of brilliancy and blunders.

"Did your mother really marry a Mr Head and name her son Richard?" - jillybean
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### #6ahydra

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Posted 2012-July-24, 07:30

I can't do much better than 1H-1S-3H-6NT (perhaps with some ace asking in there somewhere). It doesn't help that I recently agreed with my partner that 4y after 1x-?-3x is a cuebid for x.

ahydra
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### #7gnasher

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Posted 2012-July-24, 07:46

A 3 rebid seems normal. After that, I think 4 would normally be played as a cue-bid, so getting to diamonds is impossible unless responder jumps to 6 now or on the next round.

One thing responder can do is check for a spade fit. It seems sensible to do this, as opener could easily have have something like Kxx AKJxxxx x Kx. So I suggest:
1-1
3-3
4-6NT

Looking at both hands it's tempting to suggest
1-1
3-3
4-6
but I don't think responder's diamonds are good enough.
I will practice addition and subtraction before making similar posts again. - MikeH
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### #8ggwhiz

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Posted 2012-July-24, 07:51

Interesting hand in that I would rebid 2 or 3 as South depending on my mood or state of the match.

After 2 it likely goes 3 - 3 - 4 - 4 float

After 3 I just bid 3nt protecting the mp plus like a chicken

There are some hands like this one where if you offered me 45% mid-auction I would grab it and move on.
The race may not go to the swift nor the battle to the strong. But that's the way to bet it.
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### #9Zelandakh

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Posted 2012-July-24, 08:40

After a 3 rebid, I think North should bid 5NT. This seems the simplest way of keeping all of spades diamonds and NT in the picture. In practise I like hrothgar's auction, Responder downgrading somewhat in light of the big misfit.
(-: Zel :-)
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### #10Fluffy

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Posted 2012-July-24, 08:52

south´s hand looks like a 4 rebid to me, 2 wouldn´t even occur to me. 1-1-4-pass is not unthikable.

The most likelly auction for me would be:

1-1
3-3 (only alternative for north)
4-pass

after 4 north knows south has upgraded his hand due to good or long hearts, so the hand is a 30-31 combined with no fit and poor comunication, many long suits and few jacks means that slam might be a good bet still but I don´t really know, maybe a simulation from north´s point of view giving south 14-15 with 7 hearts and 0-2 spades or something like would tell us something useful.
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### #11rmnka447

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Posted 2012-July-24, 09:15

The probability of bringing in the 7 card suit without a loser is about 52%. That's assuming partner is void. That's 36% for a 3-3 break plus the probability that you can drop the J doubleton in a 4-2 break. There are 15 possible combinations for the suit in a 4-2 break. 5 of those will include the J doubleton (i.e. J with each of the other other small cards). So the probability of J doubleton in a 4-2 break is 5/15 or 33%. The probability of a 4-2 break is approximately 48%. So dropping a J doubleton is 33%(48%) or 16 %.

------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, now to the auction.

If the heart suit wasn't so solid, you might open 1 and over any repsonse bid 4 . That's a good way to bid a freakish hand with opening values and a 7 card or longer broken major suit.

But with the quality of the suit, it would seem better to open 1 and then either keep bidding at the minimum level

1 - 1
2 - 3
3 - 3 NT
4

or take a rosier view -- upgrading the K after the 1 response and looking at only 6 losers make a jump rebid in

1 - 1
3 - 4
4 - ?

? - probably getting to a slam 6

BTW although NT might just score better at MPs, the hand is probably better off in s. There's no guarantee that you'll be able to get to the suit and you may need 2 entries if s don't break. Conversely, responder's stoppers and high cards are working at a
contract.
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### #12Fluffy

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Posted 2012-July-24, 09:30

rmnka447, on 2012-July-24, 09:15, said:

The probability of bringing in the 7 card suit without a loser is about 52%. That's assuming partner is void. That's 36% for a 3-3 break plus the probability that you can drop the J doubleton in a 4-2 break. There are 15 possible combinations for the suit in a 4-2 break. 5 of those will include the J doubleton (i.e. J with each of the other other small cards). So the probability of J doubleton in a 4-2 break is 5/15 or 33%. The probability of a 4-2 break is approximately 48%. So dropping a J doubleton is 33%(48%) or 16 %.

forgot stiff jack
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### #13gnasher

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Posted 2012-July-24, 10:10

6NT by responder makes all of the time that 6 does, and has significant extra chances.

On a club lead you cross to a spade and test the hearts. If hearts dont come in, you have the extra ~10% chance that diamonds are 3-3 with A in the short heart hand. On a major-suit lead, you do the same thing, but the extra chance will also need the club finesse.

3NT is better than 4 for the same reason - you will usually get a club lead, so you'll usually make at least as many tricks as in hearts.
I will practice addition and subtraction before making similar posts again. - MikeH
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### #14aguahombre

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Posted 2012-July-24, 10:18

It is easier to look at the North hand, and then decide not to open 4 as South.

Edit: (FMP)

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-July-24, 10:52

"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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### #15Antrax

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Posted 2012-July-24, 10:32

Did you mean "than"?
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### #16mikl_plkcc

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Posted 2012-July-25, 03:16

sasioc, on 2012-July-24, 06:02, said:

This hand came up at a duplicate I played in last night and I still have no idea how I'm supposed to bid it. As I'm not sure I like that many of my choices I'm going to give both hands and simply ask how you think the auction should proceed. I was playing with my partner for the first time and had agreed 2/1 with some gadgets but had no detailed understandings about, well, anything, and would appreciate it if people tried to give auctions that don't involve lots of complex agreements!

Spoiler

Edited to make South dealer.

In my system, adjusted to 2/1, goes

1 - 1
2 (not enough to make a GF 3 rebid) - 3 (responder's new suit is still forcing)
3 (I have SOLID hearts!!!!! Please don't argue with me!) - 3NT (to play)

Spoiler

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