[sasioc]

This hand came up at a duplicate I played in last night and I still have no idea how I'm supposed to bid it. As I'm not sure I like that many of my choices I'm going to give both hands and simply ask how you think the auction should proceed. I was playing with my partner for the first time and had agreed 2/1 with some gadgets but had no detailed understandings about, well, anything, and would appreciate it if people tried to give auctions that don't involve lots of complex agreements!

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Spoiler

At my table the auction started 1♥:1♠, 3♥, which gave me a bit of a headache as North! How would you proceed now?

Edited to make South dealer.

[RunemPard]

I am not sure if I figured this out correctly, being that my math is horrible. I simply wrote down the possible splits in hearts to see the odds. I came to a 50/50 chance that the J will drop with 64 possible splits? As long as 6NT is declared from S, or the K of C is before S, it will make if the heart J drops. There may also be an entry problem, but I think it does not matter much. (Edit: Entries not really a problem...since if they hold off on the A of D we get winners anyways.)

How to get there is a good question though, and at what scoring methods we even want to be there.

The 3 heart jump would interest me though. It could be a more distributional or trick count jump as it is here, but it could also be a pure HCP jump. Do we really want to put all of our money on the 1st option and ignore the 2nd? I think the best thing to do at this point is to start with 4D IMO.

[hrothgar]

sasioc, on 2012-July-24, 06:02, said:

This hand came up at a duplicate I played in last night and I still have no idea how I'm supposed to bid it. As I'm not sure I like that many of my choices I'm going to give both hands and simply ask how you think the auction should proceed. I was playing with my partner for the first time and had agreed 2/1 with some gadgets but had no detailed understandings about, well, anything, and would appreciate it if people tried to give auctions that don't involve lots of complex agreements!

---

Spoiler

At my table the auction started 1♥:1♠, 3♥, which gave me a bit of a headache as South! How would you proceed now?

One minor suggestion: In general, I think that people assume that the dealer is sitting South rather than North.

From my perspective, the North hand is not strong enough for a 3H rebid. Its a great suit, the spade bid means that the stiff King of Spades is pulling some weight. but even so, I don't think that the hand is strong enough for 3H. (If you're willing to GF with this ahnd opposite any response, you might have been better off preempting)

I personally like the following auction

1♥ - 1♠
2♥ - 3♦
3♥ - 3N
Pass

Arguable, North might prefer 4H to pass however, I think pass stands out (especially at MP)

[sasioc]

hrothgar, on 2012-July-24, 06:45, said:

One minor suggestion: In general, I think that people assume that the dealer is sitting South rather than North.

Thanks, have edited

hrothgar, on 2012-July-24, 06:45, said:

(If you're willing to GF with this ahnd opposite any response, you might have been better off preempting)

Sorry if I've misunderstood but 3♥ doesn't gf opposite any response. It's not forcing, just shows a decentish 6 card suit and somewhere around 16-18 points if the bidder has no additional distributional features.

[RunemPard]

As far as how me and my regular partner would bid this...

1♥-1♠
2♥-3♦
3♥-3N/4♦ not really sure if I would be interested or not...3H typically shows weaker with very good hearts...too good for 10-14 TP 2H opening.
4N-5♦
5♥/6♦/6♥/NT although I think playing diamonds actually lowers the slams odds?


1♥: 11-20 (5+H)
--1♠: 6+ (4+S)
2♥: 15-17(18) TP (6+H)
--3♦: GF normally natural or fit
3♥: Very good hearts
--4♦: 5/5 or greater with longer spades
4N: 1430 RKC ♦s
--5♦: 0 or 3 keys


In this auction...we also wrong sided the NT slam.

[ahydra]

I can't do much better than 1H-1S-3H-6NT (perhaps with some ace asking in there somewhere). It doesn't help that I recently agreed with my partner that 4y after 1x-?-3x is a cuebid for x.

ahydra

[gnasher]

A 3♥ rebid seems normal. After that, I think 4♦ would normally be played as a cue-bid, so getting to diamonds is impossible unless responder jumps to 6♦ now or on the next round.

One thing responder can do is check for a spade fit. It seems sensible to do this, as opener could easily have have something like Kxx AKJxxxx x Kx. So I suggest:

1♥-1♠
3♥-3♠
4♥-6NT

Looking at both hands it's tempting to suggest

1♥-1♠
3♥-3♠
4♥-6♦

but I don't think responder's diamonds are good enough.

[ggwhiz]

Interesting hand in that I would rebid 2♥ or 3♥ as South depending on my mood or state of the match.

After 2♥ it likely goes 3♦ - 3♥ - 4♣ - 4♥ float

After 3♥ I just bid 3nt protecting the mp plus like a chicken

There are some hands like this one where if you offered me 45% mid-auction I would grab it and move on.

[Zelandakh]

After a 3♥ rebid, I think North should bid 5NT. This seems the simplest way of keeping all of spades diamonds and NT in the picture. In practise I like hrothgar's auction, Responder downgrading somewhat in light of the big misfit.

[Fluffy]

south´s hand looks like a 4♥ rebid to me, 2♥ wouldn´t even occur to me. 1♥-1♠-4♥-pass is not unthikable.

The most likelly auction for me would be:

1♥-1♠
3♥-3♠ (only alternative for north)
4♥-pass

after 4♥ north knows south has upgraded his hand due to good or long hearts, so the hand is a 30-31 combined with no fit and poor comunication, many long suits and few jacks means that slam might be a good bet still but I don´t really know, maybe a simulation from north´s point of view giving south 14-15 with 7 hearts and 0-2 spades or something like would tell us something useful.

[rmnka447]

The probability of bringing in the 7 card ♥ suit without a loser is about 52%. That's assuming partner is void. That's 36% for a 3-3 break plus the probability that you can drop the ♥ J doubleton in a 4-2 break. There are 15 possible combinations for the suit in a 4-2 break. 5 of those will include the J doubleton (i.e. J with each of the other other small cards). So the probability of J doubleton in a 4-2 break is 5/15 or 33%. The probability of a 4-2 break is approximately 48%. So dropping a J doubleton is 33%(48%) or 16 %.

------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, now to the auction.

If the heart suit wasn't so solid, you might open 1 ♥ and over any repsonse bid 4 ♥. That's a good way to bid a freakish hand with opening values and a 7 card or longer broken major suit.

But with the quality of the suit, it would seem better to open 1 ♥ and then either keep bidding ♥ at the minimum level

1 ♥ - 1 ♠
2 ♥ - 3 ♦
3 ♥ - 3 NT
4 ♥

or take a rosier view -- upgrading the ♠ K after the 1 ♠ response and looking at only 6 losers make a jump rebid in ♥

1 ♥ - 1 ♠
3 ♥ - 4 ♦
4 ♥ - ?

? - probably getting to a slam 6 ♥

BTW although NT might just score better at MPs, the hand is probably better off in ♥s. There's no guarantee that you'll be able to get to the ♥ suit and you may need 2 entries if ♥s don't break. Conversely, responder's stoppers and high cards are working at a ♥
contract.

[Fluffy]

rmnka447, on 2012-July-24, 09:15, said:

The probability of bringing in the 7 card ♥ suit without a loser is about 52%. That's assuming partner is void. That's 36% for a 3-3 break plus the probability that you can drop the ♥ J doubleton in a 4-2 break. There are 15 possible combinations for the suit in a 4-2 break. 5 of those will include the J doubleton (i.e. J with each of the other other small cards). So the probability of J doubleton in a 4-2 break is 5/15 or 33%. The probability of a 4-2 break is approximately 48%. So dropping a J doubleton is 33%(48%) or 16 %.

forgot stiff jack

[gnasher]

6NT by responder makes all of the time that 6♥ does, and has significant extra chances.

On a club lead you cross to a spade and test the hearts. If hearts dont come in, you have the extra ~10% chance that diamonds are 3-3 with ♦A in the short heart hand. On a major-suit lead, you do the same thing, but the extra chance will also need the club finesse.

3NT is better than 4♥ for the same reason - you will usually get a club lead, so you'll usually make at least as many tricks as in hearts.

[aguahombre]

It is easier to look at the North hand, and then decide not to open 4♥ as South.

Edit: (FMP)

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-July-24, 10:52

[Antrax]

Did you mean "than"?

[mikl_plkcc]

sasioc, on 2012-July-24, 06:02, said:

This hand came up at a duplicate I played in last night and I still have no idea how I'm supposed to bid it. As I'm not sure I like that many of my choices I'm going to give both hands and simply ask how you think the auction should proceed. I was playing with my partner for the first time and had agreed 2/1 with some gadgets but had no detailed understandings about, well, anything, and would appreciate it if people tried to give auctions that don't involve lots of complex agreements!

---

Spoiler

At my table the auction started 1♥:1♠, 3♥, which gave me a bit of a headache as South! How would you proceed now?

Edited to make South dealer.

In my system, adjusted to 2/1, goes

1♥ - 1♠
2♥ (not enough to make a GF 3♥ rebid) - 3♦ (responder's new suit is still forcing)
3♥ (I have SOLID hearts!!!!! Please don't argue with me!) - 3NT (to play)

Spoiler

I bid 3NT.