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Exclude New Members Why ?

#1 User is offline   hallway 

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Posted 2012-July-14, 14:40

Would those of you who use the 'exclude new members' option please explain the rationale behind your decision to do so.

I am being asked "what is a new member" - 'when will I be allowed to play in a tourney' ?- when I enquired from one who would know - the reply was " someone with less than 100 logins and joined BBO within 100 days".

If I am to keep fielding these enquiries I do need to be able to explain why one would deem it necessary to ban a new BBOer on such grounds.

I have been racking my ( admittedly aged) brains and I cannot think of any justification for doing so - I have been running tourneys on BBO since they first became possible and yes I was one of the first to plead for skill level restrictions- Experts dont want my beginners ruining their game and I dont want the experts upsetting my beginners. I understand the reasons behind all the other exclusions TDs have to choose from - but not this one :(

I am of course of the old school - been a member for 11 years those were the days when one got a real thrill if one logged in to find FIVE tables playing in the MAIN Bridge Club. Tournaments were a long way off. The day we tipped one hundred online was sheer euphoria !

A new name was WELCOMED !!! - a new name with beginner as a skill level was, for me, a TREASURE to behold !!

# logins a reason to ban ? my personal ID says 5000 + - the log in counter only came on stream a couple years ago and didnt go back to the start so you can multiply that a few times- so that restriction wouldnt stop me registering BUT I dont even let myself play in any of my own Club tourneys !

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What are today's new BBOers guilty of ? -
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What makes a player acceptable if they joined 3 months ago and have logged in once a day ? - I have members who have belonged to BBO for years, logged in 100's of times who havent yet sat at a table why are they acceptable but if my local Regional champion, a decent enough guy and not too shabby a player joined today he would not even be given a trial ?

I do understand that BBO would not have used precious programming time to make such an option available to those of you who have, presumably, pleaded for it unless there is some compelling reason behind the need for it.

I am obviously missing the plot. Right now it grieves me deeply to think that a BBO TD can discriminate against a fellow bridge player simply because they are a 'new' member of BBO.
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#2 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-July-14, 15:26

"Exclude new member" prevents those people who disrupt a tournament, abuse their opponents, partners and similar behaviour and who subsequently get banned from the tournament from simply creating a new ID to sign up again.

Unfortunately, it does prevent innocent new players from joining until they have done some time but it does give the TD the option of excluding those they don't want have in their tournaments.
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#3 User is offline   hallway 

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Posted 2012-July-15, 17:48

So you put them in your exclusion list and then in addition condemn ALL new BBO members so that you dont have to deal with the undesirable's new BBOID for 3 months - IF it occurs to them to create one

Do the undesirables suddenly become models of proprietory when their new BBOID hits 100 logins / 3 month mark ?

That is NOT my experience !!!! - 'leopards never do change their spots' Oh NO I have evidence galore of that!! they will probably create a dozen new IDs at the same time so they wont have to wait anytime at all once the 3 month mark rolls in ( logging in 100 times takes no effort ) As you then add one new ID to your exclusion list they will simply switch to # 3 >>>>>

Sounds to me a bit like playing ostrich - putting your head in the sand - they are not going to go away - deal with them on the day, it is no big deal to switch in a sub!

and in the meantime you are going to give the WRONG message to a lot of decent people - the sort of people I thought BBO was created for.

I will need a more compelling reason than that to convince me that this is a good thing for BBO

Else those of us who care will have to plead for a bigger tourney description box so that we can add - NEW BBOers WELCOME HERE !
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#4 User is offline   shintaro 

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Posted 2012-July-16, 02:56

View Posthallway, on 2012-July-15, 17:48, said:

So you put them in your exclusion list and then in addition condemn ALL new BBO members so that you dont have to deal with the undesirable's new BBOID for 3 months - IF it occurs to them to create one

Do the undesirables suddenly become models of proprietory when their new BBOID hits 100 logins / 3 month mark ?

That is NOT my experience !!!! - 'leopards never do change their spots' Oh NO I have evidence galore of that!! they will probably create a dozen new IDs at the same time so they wont have to wait anytime at all once the 3 month mark rolls in ( logging in 100 times takes no effort ) As you then add one new ID to your exclusion list they will simply switch to # 3 >>>>>

Sounds to me a bit like playing ostrich - putting your head in the sand - they are not going to go away - deal with them on the day, it is no big deal to switch in a sub!

and in the meantime you are going to give the WRONG message to a lot of decent people - the sort of people I thought BBO was created for.

I will need a more compelling reason than that to convince me that this is a good thing for BBO

Else those of us who care will have to plead for a bigger tourney description box so that we can add - NEW BBOers WELCOME HERE !



Maureen is the way to do this like the one we use for Acol Club Members only competitions

To use INCLUDE lists and EXCLUDE lists

THen all 'Newbies' need to do is ask for their name/alias to be INCLUDED
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#5 User is offline   hallway 

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Posted 2012-July-16, 18:44

I acknowledgde that those of us with Clubs dont of course face the problems that beset those who hold fully open tournaments.

I dont use an exclusion list and I dont bother putting anyone on an 'enemy' list either I dont believe in giving them that much value ! They are told dont register in my tournaments again, if you do we will simply sub you out - what's not to understand ?( takes 2 seconds at most to do that )

However, if I was running open tournaments ( did a few back in the dim and distant past) and was being plagued by the undesirables and non of the many restrictions available helped in any way I would have requested BBO to create an Exclusion List Register.

Whereby TD's with a proven track record could be given the right to register their Exclusion List

When 'joeblog' signs up with a new name up comes the flag and the software automatically sends thew owner of the List an alert.
One then decides do I give joeblog2 another chance ( just maybe now that he has had to go to that bother he may see the light ) or was he so bad I never want him near my players again in which case one adds his new ID to the Exclusion List

Bingo! s/he has gone to the bother of creating a New ID and it didnt work, still cant get in - s/he may try again and even again to no avail and 3 months down the track one wouldnt have to start worrying about any of them turning up again in a new disguise.

AND with an Exclusion Register there would be no need for any one to ever ban all new BBOers - so the innocent, very nice new BBOers could from day one come along and play, and feel welcomed.

Instead it now seems that any TD can ban all new BBOers indiscriminately - even the TDs who have only just been granted permission to hold tourneys ?
Maureen
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#6 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-July-16, 22:38

View Posthallway, on 2012-July-16, 18:44, said:

When 'joeblog' signs up with a new name up comes the flag and the software automatically sends thew owner of the List an alert.

How is the system supposed to tell that it's joeblog signing up with a new name?

We don't currently have any way of recognizing users other than by their usernames. There's no way to know automatically that two different names belong to the same person. We don't require you to provide an email address, credit card number, postal address, or other unique identifying info when creating an account.

#7 User is offline   shintaro 

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Posted 2012-July-17, 03:25

View Posthallway, on 2012-July-16, 18:44, said:



Whereby TD's with a proven track record could be given the right to register their Exclusion List

AND with an Exclusion Register there would be no need for any one to ever ban all new BBOers - so the innocent, very nice new BBOers could from day one come along and play, and feel welcomed.

Instead it now seems that any TD can ban all new BBOers indiscriminately - even the TDs who have only just been granted permission to hold tourneys ?



Hi Maureen

Yes having an 'Exclusion' does work for 'known' offenders which is why we use it

But as we are 'ACOL ONLY Tournaments' we need an Include list

This does not mean that Acol Players cannot join If their Partner asks the TD we can/will include them

As for TD's banning ALL Newbies That is Wrong
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#8 User is offline   hallway 

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Posted 2012-July-20, 21:18

View Postbarmar, on 2012-July-16, 22:38, said:

How is the system supposed to tell that it's joeblog signing up with a new name?

We don't currently have any way of recognizing users other than by their usernames. There's no way to know automatically that two different names belong to the same person. We don't require you to provide an email address, credit card number, postal address, or other unique identifying info when creating an account.


You cant at this time but BBO could create the means of letting ( approved) Tds know when someone on their exclusion list does create new IDs

Such a method seems preferable to me than allowing any and all TDs to condemn all new BBOers indiscriminately - that is what you are doing when you load that "exclude new members' option to your tourneys

But then I am an old fashioned dinosaur who in spite of the undesirables and the ever present stalkers still prefers to give a newcomer a chance. As Uday said to me once long ago - "You need to toughen up M " - whenever the going seemed too rough that became my mantra and one learned to think outside the square and still be fair to those who deserved one's trust - so I say to today's TDs - 'you too need to toughen up "

I just hope that some of you will now think twice before selecting the 'exclude new member' restriction.
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#9 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-July-20, 22:22

View Posthallway, on 2012-July-20, 21:18, said:

You cant at this time but BBO could create the means of letting ( approved) Tds know when someone on their exclusion list does create new IDs

How are we supposed to know that the new ID belongs to the same person as some old ID?

This whole line of thought presumes that we have a way of identifying people other than by their IDs.

#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-21, 08:49

View Postbarmar, on 2012-July-20, 22:22, said:

How are we supposed to know that the new ID belongs to the same person as some old ID?

This whole line of thought presumes that we have a way of identifying people other than by their IDs.

IP address.
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#11 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-July-21, 21:13

Lots of people have the same IP address (most businesses and many schools use firewalls that give everyone the same IP). And it's easy for a person to get themselves a different IP - in particular, the abusive types know how to use VPN proxies that keep changing their IP (last week one of the yellows said that someone was taunting them by doing this whenever he tried to ban them).

#12 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-23, 07:20

I didn't say it was a perfect solution.
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#13 User is offline   scarletv 

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Posted 2012-July-23, 18:13

A friend of mine that I know from face-to-face bridge started a couple of weeks ago at BBO. She is playing Bridge since more than 20 years and playing pretty well. I never saw her misbehaving at the table ....

Last week she said to me: "Tourneys are not working - I cannot register. I am frustrated."

I have difficulties to explain her how she is able to find a tourney. Even for me as someone playing here quite frequently it is difficult to find a place to play together with her. New players at BBO are struggeling with the software with the language and international players and with all the possibilites that are given here. But it is absolutely intransparent to them what tourneys they are able to play.
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#14 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2012-July-23, 18:32

View Postscarletv, on 2012-July-23, 18:13, said:

A friend of mine that I know from face-to-face bridge started a couple of weeks ago at BBO. She is playing Bridge since more than 20 years and playing pretty well. I never saw her misbehaving at the table ....

Last week she said to me: "Tourneys are not working - I cannot register. I am frustrated."

I have difficulties to explain her how she is able to find a tourney. Even for me as someone playing here quite frequently it is difficult to find a place to play together with her. New players at BBO are struggeling with the software with the language and international players and with all the possibilites that are given here. But it is absolutely intransparent to them what tourneys they are able to play.


Just so we are clear, the officials at BBO do NOT tell the free tournament directors who they can include or exclude from their tournaments. Who can play in those events are totally up the directors themselves. They can limit people to those with a specific flag (in some cases), only those on their own include list, or only those they have not specifically banned, or in the case being discussed here, only those with a known BBO bridge history.

I seldom play in tournaments, so I am certain I would be excluded from a large number of them. I do play in the random ACBL event, and of course, am not excluded from those. Neither would any new member (assuming they are willing to pay the dollar).



The excluded new members option is one created to solve a problem the free directors were having with problem children (bad actors, boorish people, etc). Since the free tournament directors make BBO a nice place for those who don't want to pay money to play in a tournament to have a game, BBO tries to make their life easier. This is one way, we find these bad actors and we bar their name. They can create a new name, of course, but then they have to go through the vetting process to get to play in tournaments they were disrupting.. where we can ban them again if they act bad.

The ban against new members can be circumvented, i THINK, by including a list of acceptable people. Just have the new person ask the director if he would added (barry correct me if I am wrong about this). If the new member then becomes a problem, you can remove them from the include list --- and report them to BBO.

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#15 User is offline   shintaro 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 02:55

Quote

The ban against new members can be circumvented, i THINK, by including a list of acceptable people. Just have the new person ask the director if he would added (barry correct me if I am wrong about this). If the new member then becomes a problem, you can remove them from the include list --- and report them to BBO.

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Yes it can, as I outlined the way we do it Being a running pure Acol only Tournaments and in the main it works
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#16 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-July-27, 11:36

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-July-23, 07:20, said:

I didn't say it was a perfect solution.


Even my house has one IP address and has had (at various times) at least 5 different physical people logging to BBO from here.
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#17 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-July-27, 16:30

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2012-July-27, 11:36, said:

Even my house has one IP address and has had (at various times) at least 5 different physical people logging to BBO from here.

As long as none of them get banned from tourneys, you don't have anything to worry about.

And if you do, then maybe you should be more circumspect about who you allow to use your Internet connection.

#18 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-July-30, 07:23

View Postbarmar, on 2012-July-21, 21:13, said:

Lots of people have the same IP address (most businesses and many schools use firewalls that give everyone the same IP). And it's easy for a person to get themselves a different IP - in particular, the abusive types know how to use VPN proxies that keep changing their IP.

View Postbarmar, on 2012-July-27, 16:30, said:

maybe you should be more circumspect about who you allow to use your Internet connection.

So what happens when I play from an internet cafe and someone else gets banned from the same cafe? How about if I decide to virtual proxy onto Frances' IP address and get banned? Or maybe I just piggy-back onto an open wireless network, there's not exactly a shortage of them. Oh right, if I am not savvy enough to set up my network properly then I deserve to be banned, right. Same when going through a messy divorce and the ex-partner decides to use the connection to be abusive. After all, everyone can control who uses their IP address 100% of the time, right?
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#19 User is offline   uday 

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Posted 2012-July-30, 10:12

We're getting off track a bit, I think

TDs can't ban anyone. All they can do is exclude players from their own tournaments.

"Exclude newbies" is a way to TDs to choose to exclude both newbies and returning perps. We don't have a good way to distinguish between the two, tho suggestions are welcome. This isn't perfect, but it does lead to calmer tourneys. If I were to run an open T, it would use no-newbies and it would use a high TCR ( tourney completion rate). Yes, it would perforce exclude a handful of perfectly nice newbies but odds are there aren't a lot of those lurking around (i think)


U

#20 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-July-30, 14:54

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-July-30, 07:23, said:

So what happens when I play from an internet cafe and someone else gets banned from the same cafe? How about if I decide to virtual proxy onto Frances' IP address and get banned? Or maybe I just piggy-back onto an open wireless network, there's not exactly a shortage of them. Oh right, if I am not savvy enough to set up my network properly then I deserve to be banned, right. Same when going through a messy divorce and the ex-partner decides to use the connection to be abusive. After all, everyone can control who uses their IP address 100% of the time, right?

The suggestion was only that if a tourney owner excluded someone, they would be notified about NEW accounts created from the same IP. So if you have a longstanding account, the suggestion would have no effect on you.

Also, they didn't suggest that the new account automatically be excluded, only that the tourney owner should be notified so they can decide what to do.

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