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ATB

Poll: ATB (30 member(s) have cast votes)

Who is to blame?

  1. Mainly North (20 votes [66.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  2. Mainly South (8 votes [26.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.67%

  3. Both (2 votes [6.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.67%

  4. Neither / Bad Luck (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   quiddity 

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Posted 2012-July-05, 10:33


Imps.
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#2 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2012-July-05, 10:55

North has a two bid hand when pard has doubled and then bid at adverse colors 3H on their own.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#3 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-July-05, 11:08

what would you have done over 2d if rho had passed?? your hand is too strong
for a mere 2h bid and not quite strong enough for a game forcing 3h bid (suit is
not so great either) so you would have settled for a 2s bid. The purpose of the 2s
bid was to gather more information from p as cheaply as possible. You have the
same opportunity here by repeating your TOX. If p wants to convert this to penalty
you are certainly not going to be embarrased by your defense and if p bids again
we will be in much better shape to proceed intelligenlty. There is also one more
benefit from a second x if we bid 3h now it is stronger than if we had bid 3h
directly over 2s. That means it is forcing to at least the 4 level. A direct 3h is
mererly be competitive (around 16 and hopefully at least 6 hearts).

Note how well this works with this hand----your second x gets a 3c bid from p
you now know they are distributional (at least 54) so the odds of 4h being correct
drop to almost nonexistence ---- since p avoided nt they do not have a spde stopper
so nt is a poor bet that leaves us with 4d asking p to proceed to 5 if they are not
broke and p bids 5d with their ace.
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#4 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2012-July-05, 11:27

Except that I would pass a 2nd double with the north hand, stiff , 2 trumps and an entry.

The South hand looks like a 3 or 4 bid instead at imps and either should lead to 5.
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#5 User is online   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-July-05, 11:43

View Postgszes, on 2012-July-05, 11:08, said:

what would you have done over 2d if rho had passed?? your hand is too strong
for a mere 2h bid and not quite strong enough for a game forcing 3h bid (suit is
not so great either) so you would have settled for a 2s bid. The purpose of the 2s
bid was to gather more information from p as cheaply as possible. You have the
same opportunity here by repeating your TOX. If p wants to convert this to penalty
you are certainly not going to be embarrased by your defense and if p bids again
we will be in much better shape to proceed intelligenlty. There is also one more
benefit from a second x if we bid 3h now it is stronger than if we had bid 3h
directly over 2s. That means it is forcing to at least the 4 level. A direct 3h is
mererly be competitive (around 16 and hopefully at least 6 hearts).

Note how well this works with this hand----your second x gets a 3c bid from p
you now know they are distributional (at least 54) so the odds of 4h being correct
drop to almost nonexistence ---- since p avoided nt they do not have a spde stopper
so nt is a poor bet that leaves us with 4d asking p to proceed to 5 if they are not
broke and p bids 5d with their ace.


I lost this post about half way through.

I disagree that I am too strong for a 2 bid had RHO not rebid his spades. A direct 1 overcall can be made on a pretty strong hand. The maximum for a simple overcall is about 17 or even 18 if a double would be inappropriate. So, to me, the double followed by a new suit (2 in this case) shows about 18-22 and not enough to force to game opposite a non-fitting nothing hand. This hand is about a maximum for a 2 rebid.

Where I lost this post was the statement that "A direct 3h is mererly be competitive (around 16 and hopefully at least 6 hearts)." This is silly. Why would I commit a 16 count with 6 hearts to the 3 level opposite a partner who had promised nothing so far other than diamonds as his best of the unbid suits? 3 over 2 is a huge bid. This hand is certainly strong enough for it, even though the heart suit is less than I would expect.

This hand is a real problem over 2. I have no strong objection to 3, but I might bid 3 due to the diamond fit.

As for responder, he has an A and 5-5 in the minors. Passing over 3 is out of the question.
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#6 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-July-05, 12:29

OMG north passed with that?, I'd rate slam bids over pass.
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#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-July-05, 13:06

View Postkeylime, on 2012-July-05, 10:55, said:

North has a two bid hand when pard has doubled and then bid at adverse colors 3H on their own.

OK, but what is his second bid ? Is 4 natural here ?

S complicated an auction with a known fit by bidding a 5 card suit. I'd have bid 2N which IMO shows something like a (possibly off shape) 2N opener. Now partner knows we're bidding game, I can also live with X, but don't bid 3.
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#8 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-July-05, 14:04

75%north, north cant pass 3h with that hand.

25% south, prefer x over 2s.
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#9 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-July-05, 14:12

South had other alternatives, but 3 was at least reasonable.

North had other alternatives, but pass was not reasonable.

100% north.
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#10 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2012-July-05, 21:47

A different construction:8
Overcall 6-16 also 17-19 with exactly 6-3-3-1 shape, 1 in their suit (s here).
Double then double implies no 5+ card major or 6+ card minor to rebid. Generally 14-19 HCP.
Double then new suit 17-19 (excludes 6331 shapes).
Double then jump new suit 20-21
Double then NT 19-21
Double then Q-bid 22+

On this hand, I would double then rebid 2N. I would open this hand 2N in 2/1.
North cannot pass either 3 or 2N. Responder has an 8 loser opposite partner's at worst 5-loser (here 4).
5 or 6 of either minor should be on the radar screen...
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#11 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2012-July-05, 23:37

We may or may not agree with the 3. He has alternative bids perhaps. It would be more sexy if he had 6th for his bid but life aint perfect.

But i am sure we all will agree ( i hope) that North's pass is ugly.
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#12 User is online   rhm 

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Posted 2012-July-06, 02:47

View PostMrAce, on 2012-July-05, 23:37, said:

We may or may not agree with the 3. He has alternative bids perhaps. It would be more sexy if he had 6th for his bid but life aint perfect.

But i am sure we all will agree ( i hope) that North's pass is ugly.

I second that.
Those who critic 3, how long do you want to hide a strong 5 card major in a strong hand?
We might belong in 4 opposite Qx and not much else.
Is partner supposed to bid a 3 card heart suit at the three-level holding a weak hand?
Do you want to force to game missing 3 aces when partner has not promised anything?

I consider 3 at this stage the right bid, even though this could loose when we belong in a diamond partial.
Too tough

Rainer Herrmann
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#13 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2012-July-06, 05:34

I can understand Norths pass. 3 is limited after all... North should have bid 3 anyway because it's imps.
I think another double by South is better than 3. With one more heart and and a few points less 3 would have been spot on...
North 60% South 40%
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#14 User is online   rhm 

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Posted 2012-July-06, 06:21

View Postlowerline, on 2012-July-06, 05:34, said:

I can understand Norths pass. 3 is limited after all... North should have bid 3 anyway because it's imps.

Is South unlimited? Does he have game in hand?
South 3 shows a near game force. It does not say the hand can only play hearts.
Only a beginner will pass over 3 when holding an ace and good distribution, no matter what the vulnerability, imps or matchpoints. After all 6 could be laydown.
3 over 3 with another unbid 5 card suit but nothing in spades and a singleton heart is a joke.
Over 3 South may bid 3NT. In this case 3NT has chances. Exchange South minors and the contract is terrible.
If you bid 4 over 3NT after 3 you make a cuebid in support of hearts.

Quote

I think another double by South is better than 3. With one more heart and and a few points less 3 would have been spot on...
North 60% South 40%

If South doubles and LHO at white against red raises spades, what now? Maybe in your local club games this never happens, my LHO do this all the time.
I wonder how you will ever find your heart fit, if you have one. If you bid 4 you will end up in a 5-1 fit, if not you will miss your 5-3 fit.

Rainer Herrmann
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#15 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2012-July-06, 07:18

View Postrhm, on 2012-July-06, 06:21, said:

Is South unlimited? Does he have game in hand?
South 3 shows a near game force. It does not say the hand can only play hearts.
Only a beginner will pass over 3 when holding an ace and good distribution, no matter what the vulnerability, imps or matchpoints. After all 6 could be laydown.
3 over 3 with another unbid 5 card suit but nothing in spades and a singleton heart is a joke.
Over 3 South may bid 3NT. In this case 3NT has chances. Exchange South minors and the contract is terrible.
If you bid 4 over 3NT after 3 you make a cuebid in support of hearts.


If South doubles and LHO at white against red raises spades, what now? Maybe in your local club games this never happens, my LHO do this all the time.
I wonder how you will ever find your heart fit, if you have one. If you bid 4 you will end up in a 5-1 fit, if not you will miss your 5-3 fit.

Rainer Herrmann



Why can't South have 16-17 hcp and a 6crd heart suit? Why shouldn't North pass that at matchpoints? I don't believe that 3 can be that strong that 6 is laydown.
3 is the only way to 3nt. North has to decide right now what the most likely game is. Maybe 4 is better, but if 3nt makes, 3 can hardly be a joke...

South knows there is a diamond fit. If he doubles again now, he can always bid 5 later. Are you so worried that 4 makes and 5 doesn't?

Steven
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#16 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-July-06, 09:31

View PostArtK78, on 2012-July-05, 11:43, said:

I lost this post about half way through.

I disagree that I am too strong for a 2 bid had RHO not rebid his spades. A direct 1 overcall can be made on a pretty strong hand. The maximum for a simple overcall is about 17 or even 18 if a double would be inappropriate. So, to me, the double followed by a new suit (2 in this case) shows about 18-22 and not enough to force to game opposite a non-fitting nothing hand. This hand is about a maximum for a 2 rebid.

Where I lost this post was the statement that "A direct 3h is mererly be competitive (around 16 and hopefully at least 6 hearts)." This is silly. Why would I commit a 16 count with 6 hearts to the 3 level opposite a partner who had promised nothing so far other than diamonds as his best of the unbid suits? 3 over 2 is a huge bid. This hand is certainly strong enough for it, even though the heart suit is less than I would expect.

This hand is a real problem over 2. I have no strong objection to 3, but I might bid 3 due to the diamond fit.

As for responder, he has an A and 5-5 in the minors. Passing over 3 is out of the question.



i reread my post and i can see where the confusion might set in my bad my original statement about 3h being game forcing was
assuming rho had not bid 2s



the second part assumes the 2s bid then

3h competitive (say 17-a poor 20) with x followed by 3h a great 19+ (our current hand for ex) even though we really wish we had 6 hearts:))))
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#17 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2012-July-06, 18:09

View Postlowerline, on 2012-July-06, 07:18, said:

Why can't South have 16-17 hcp and a 6crd heart suit? ?

Steven


He shouldn't.

He has a perfect hand to start with overcall instead of DBL then. But if you are one of those who always start with DBL with 16+ without thinking ahead, you will often face this type of decisions.
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#18 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-July-06, 21:17

3H is a bad bid. It does indeed suggest playability in only hearts, or at least 6 good hearts. With a more flexible hand, south doubles again and then can bid 3H if he wants (with 5 hearts), much like a hand he has. Bidding 3H with only 5 hearts when partner will be forced to pass with a stiff heart and a hand not good enough to bid cannot be right.

Passing 3H seems reasonable to me. North has 1 trick and one heart. Partner has not suggested 9 tricks. xx AKJxxx Kx AQx would certainly double and bid hearts at his next turn, that is not a game. And on the bidding partner will often have 3 spades which is even worse for our hand.

I do not understand why people are calling passing 3H a beginner bid, from my understanding of partners bidding we are not likely to have enough HCP for game nor do we have a fit for his suit. What is so great about our hand?

Now, had partner doubled 2S like a human being it would be very easy to get to game since we know partners hand has more HCP and less hearts.
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#19 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-July-06, 21:19

View Postrhm, on 2012-July-06, 06:21, said:

If South doubles and LHO at white against red raises spades, what now? Maybe in your local club games this never happens, my LHO do this all the time.
I wonder how you will ever find your heart fit, if you have one. If you bid 4 you will end up in a 5-1 fit, if not you will miss your 5-3 fit.

Rainer Herrmann


If you double then bid 4H over 3S, partner will not pass with a stiff lol. That is the whole point of doubling a second time. The way you end up in 5-1 fits is by bidding 3H and having partner pass with a stiff. If you change the DA to the D2 I assume you will agree with passing 3H, and yet you are in a completely ridiculous contract.
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#20 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-July-06, 21:25

View Postrhm, on 2012-July-06, 06:21, said:


Only a beginner will pass over 3 when holding an ace and good distribution,


"Good distribution." Oh yeah, we have a stiff in partners suit when he has shown a heart hand, and we have a doubleton in the opps suit. Is any distribution bad? Surely 3334 would be great, we have a fit! 2254, awesome, a fit and 54 in the minors! There really must be no such thing to you as bad distribution. As far as I'm concerned a stiff heart is bad distribution, I will not get any points for ruffing hearts if we play in hearts.

Since there is no such thing as bad shape to you, I guess we must bid with an ace because partner has shown about 18 points and 6 hearts. Sounds awesome.
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