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Stayman with 44M less than invite Yes? No? Maybe?

#1 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 09:41

What do people think about responding 2 stayman to 1NT on less than invitational values, with 4-4 in the majors? It's pretty normal to bid this way (garbage stayman) with 4450 or 4441 shape, so the question is more about hands which have fewer diamonds.

For example, opposite a 15-17 notrump you might hold a 4423 with 0-7 points.

Do you bid stayman? If the answer is "sometimes" what factors into your decision?
Adam W. Meyerson
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#2 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 09:44

I usually don't but if the suits have good spots and the hand very weak I would. JT98-JT98-432-32 is ideal.
it is amazing to me that over half of declarers in virtually any field would go down in this cold contract. Some things never change, the skill of the "average" bridge player remains well below average. Iandayre
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#3 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 09:51

I used to do it but some simulations and bad experiences convinced me not to. I still like experimenting with stuff like bid 2C intending to bid 2NT over 2D or pass 2M with near-invites with 44 balanced hands but it probably doesn't work.
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#4 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 09:58

View Postawm, on 2012-June-28, 09:41, said:

It's pretty normal to bid this way (garbage stayman) with 4450 or 4441 shape, so the question is more about hands which have fewer diamonds.

For example, opposite a 15-17 notrump you might hold a 4423 with 0-7 points.

Do you bid stayman? If the answer is "sometimes" what factors into your decision?

FWIW, we stopped calling the 4-4-5-0, 4-4-4-1, or (43)5-1 situation "Garbage Stayman" and switched to "Drop Dead Stayman" when we read articles advocating Stayman on the 4423 0-7 pt hands, and they were calling it Garbage Stayman.

We also choose not to do it with those 4-4 balanced hands and haven't lamented. We would have to adjust rebids after a 2D answer, which would mess up our current structure --in addition to other bad things which could happen.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#5 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 10:25

I would be more tempted to bid an offshape junk stayman at matchpoints than at IMPs, and most of all at BAM. I expect partner will bid a major more often than 2. I would need an understanding partner for those times it fails though.
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#6 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 10:54

Having a 15/16 NT puts me in the happy situation where 2NT over a major is to play and not an invite. So I do this with sufficient values but not a game hand, regardless of minor shape. I wouldn't do it with a typical 4-6 count without 4 diamonds, but I have done it without diamonds and say 0-2 points, at matchpoints as a preempt, but I don't remember it as successful.
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#7 User is offline   masse24 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 11:43

An interesting discussion from several years ago here: Four-Four in Majors After Partner Opens 1NT (15-17)

As expected....no clear consensus, but, I tend to do it the weaker I am. If 6-7 HCP I am more likely to pass on the theory that 1NT will make. :)
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#8 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 11:54

I used to do it more, but pretty much only now with most of the strength in the majors and some good spot cards in the majors too. A 4-3 fit in a lousy major doesn't seem to work very well.
"What's the big rebid problem? After 1♦ - 1♠, I can rebid 1NT, 2♠, or 2♦."
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#9 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 12:19

there is emerganey stayman and garbage stayman the two are somewhat similar
but the responses to garbage stayman give up on some major suit games and is
not usually a good idea at imps. At MP however has some strengths.


Emergency stayman is when you hate the idea of 1n becasue your hand is so weak
and you intend to pass whatever p bids. This limits your hand types and should only
be used when you have decent fear of being stuck in 1n and can reasonably pass
a 2 d/h/s bid from p. Distributions for this type of bid (usually with around 4 hcp max)
4450 4441 3451 4351 ---this treatment requires no alert since it is standard practice.



Garbage stayman focuses on finding a safe place to play in the majors OR (depending on
partnership agreement on how far they want to go with this treatment) a weak hand with
a 4 card major and a 6(5) card minor. The general responses with the expanded version

IF OPENER BIDS 2D

2h asks p to pass with 3 hearts or:
bid 2s with 3 spades (responder can pass or bid their minor) OR
bid 3c with 22 in the majors which responder will pass

2s asks opener to pass with 3 spades or bid 3c which responder will pass


IF OPENER BIDS 2H

2s asks opener to pass with 3 spades or to bid 3c which repsonder
will pass or bid 3d.

IF OPENER BIDS 2S

responder will pass or bid their minor.


It is important to note that garbage stayman has many more distributions available for use it gives up a fair amount
of spade that most feel is better utilized searching for games/slams and this is especially true if you include the
minors.

Using garbage stayman when you have only 44 in majors can also run into trouble if opener started with 22
in the majors though this does not happen often and at MP will probably result in a merely poorer result than
the rest of the field.

IMO garbage stayman is a useful tool but I would only use it as a passed had where slam considerations are
extremely limited.
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#10 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 13:38

View Postawm, on 2012-June-28, 09:41, said:

What do people think about responding 2 stayman to 1NT on less than invitational values, with 4-4 in the majors? It's pretty normal to bid this way (garbage stayman) with 4450 or 4441 shape, so the question is more about hands which have fewer diamonds.

For example, opposite a 15-17 notrump you might hold a 4423 with 0-7 points.

Do you bid stayman? If the answer is "sometimes" what factors into your decision?


I do it rarely, I know many good players do it often, I think as long as you don't mess up the automatic passes or automatic staymans it probably doesn't matter what you do with the in between hands.
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#11 User is offline   Yu18772 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 23:58

I think it may depend on how often you open 1NT with 2:2:(5:4) hands. We used to open these 1NT almost automatically, unless the minors were really good and majors xx in both. So we also almost never bid garbage without 4 diamonds. The 1NT-2-2-2 would usually be at least 5 -4....(not that we didnt end playing in 4-2 fit that way :))

Posted ImageYu
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#12 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 02:51

I wonder, if so many do it only rarely, why not change that to never and use 1nt-2c-2d-2h for something constructive? With weak 5-4 or 5-5 you can always transfer and hope for the best. (just a thought)
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#13 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 04:01

I consider this a subject ideal for computer analysis

Extensive results from double dummy analysis "Drop Dead Stayman" On what shapes and strengths is it appropriate?

can be found at

http://taigabridge.n.../dd/garbage.htm

The results indicate with few exceptions that those who do not pass are right much more often than not.

To cite from the web site:
"The two fundamental conclusions are having three cards in a suit is okay, but having only two is bad and the weaker responder's hand is, the larger the profit from using Drop-Dead Stayman."

Rainer Herrmann
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#14 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 09:18

It still hurts:

Board 3

We have a comfortable 4-4 heart fit. I passed the North hand. Ed Davis and Sid Brownstein defended 1N perfectly and beat it 3 tricks - 1.5 out of 25 for us.

The swing might have been from the defense. Most pairs were -50 or -100 our way.
Where there's ink there's squid Phil.
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#15 User is offline   jeffford76 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 10:25

I thought computer simulation had shown that this improved the contract on average, but with incredibly high variance. So you have to decide whether you want to swing against the field.
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#16 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 10:28

An additional question:

Suppose you do bid stayman with a 44(32) and partner rebids 2; do you pass or try 2?
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#17 User is offline   Yu18772 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 10:33

View Postrhm, on 2012-June-29, 04:01, said:

I consider this a subject ideal for computer analysis
http://taigabridge.n.../dd/garbage.htm
Rainer Herrmann


I didnt find what distributions were included in 1NT simulation......
Posted ImageYu
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"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
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"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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#18 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 10:35

View Postawm, on 2012-June-29, 10:28, said:

An additional question:

Suppose you do bid stayman with a 44(32) and partner rebids 2; do you pass or try 2?

That is easy. I will pass when pard is 3-3-2-5, and bid 2H when she is 3-2-5-3.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#19 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 11:46

View Postrhm, on 2012-June-29, 04:01, said:

I consider this a subject ideal for computer analysis


I think the double dummy advantage for declarer is particularly substantial in known 4-3 fits.
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#20 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-June-29, 12:07

View PostYu18772, on 2012-June-29, 10:33, said:

I didnt find what distributions were included in 1NT simulation......
Posted ImageYu


Is it so difficult to read?

Quote

If you play very old-fashioned conservative 1NT openings -- especially if you rarely or never hold a 5-card major when you open 1NT -- you need to also be more willing to pass 1NT

end-quote

The extreme shapes in general (5422 etc) argue more for run-out than against it.

Rainer Herrmann
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