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2NT showing 5/5 in the majors or 5/5 in the minors?

#1 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 04:14

The Blue Team Club at some point used the 2NT bid to show 5/5 in the majors and 8-12 HCP. The continuation bidding structure is quite effective. Sure you get some bad results with a hopeless misfit and the hand belonging to the opponents, but they aren’t that many.

Now compare BTC 2NT with those advocating 5/5 in the minors and 5-10 HCP. Do you really gain anything here? You have leaked information to the opponents as to the hand layout and HCP distribution. Besides, defending against this is easy. Something I’ve seen is this:
Double = Both majors, majors equal in length
3 = Both majors, longer than
3 = Both majors, longer than

A counter argument I have heard is, “When you have 5/5 in the majors, why consume your own bidding space?” Well with 5/5 in the majors and 10-12 HCP, opening 1 is normal. As the auction progresses, the 1 opener ends up repeating the suit twice to convey the 5/5 holding, ending up on the 3-level anyway. En route there, every additional bid partner makes is leaking information to the opponents. So why not minimise information leakage while at the same time placing some real pressure upon the opponents on whether or not to enter the auction in the minor suits. If they do and partner has a distributional fit in either of your suits, declarer play will be made easier through the minor suit overcall.
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#2 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 04:21

View Post32519, on 2012-June-28, 04:14, said:

The Blue Team Club at some point used the 2NT bid to show 5/5 in the majors and 8-12 HCP.


Are you on crack?

Please show me any reputable source on Blue Club that uses this.

For what its worth, I have write ups of the system by Garozzo and Yallouze, Garozzo and Forquet, and Sharif.
As I recall, none of these mention using a 2NT opening as anything other that a strong balanced hand.

(Looks like the Franco notes that you posted include this opening...
Not sure what to think... I find it vaguely horrific that he talks about developing Blue Club)
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 04:59

View Posthrothgar, on 2012-June-28, 04:21, said:

Please show me any reputable source on Blue Club that uses this.


The link above comes from Dan's website, "Bridge With Dan." I ran plenty of sims through BBOs deal generator to test the continuation bidding structure. I found it to be very effective (although not fool-proof).
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#4 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 07:46

View Posthrothgar, on 2012-June-28, 04:21, said:

Are you on crack?

Have you been reading the forums these past months? If so, do you really still need to ask this question? ;)
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#5 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 10:27

View Postmgoetze, on 2012-June-28, 07:46, said:

Have you been reading the forums these past months? If so, do you really still need to ask this question? ;)

My book says 21/22 balanced, but no matter. Let's have more of these off the wall ideas. Out of madness might come genius.
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#6 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 20:43

I thought the OP was going to be about using 2NT to show 5/5 in majors OR 5/5 in minors. It fits in well with using a multi 2, and 2 and 2 to show 5M5m. And it's not so easy to defend against this 2NT than one which shows just the minors (or just the majors).
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#7 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-June-28, 21:19

Another possibility is 2D: Multi, 2H: Majors, Ekrens style, 2S: Unspecified two suiter (not majors obv), 2NT natural. Mostly because you can pass 2S and have an extra step to bid.

Alternatively, to avoid brown stickers: 2D - Multi, 2H: Majors, 2S: minors or the reds, 2NT: rounded suits. Then put weak diamonds in 2C and you're gold, missing only a weak pre-empt in clubs. Altenatively lose the H+C pre-empt in 2NT and leave it natural.

Not as effective as 2S is obviously forcing. Maybe another combine is

2C: Strong or majors
2D: minors or reds
2H: Either major
2S: spades + another
2NT: Natural.

Loses weak 2D which is a shame.
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#8 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-June-30, 06:21

View PostfromageGB, on 2012-June-28, 10:27, said:

Let's have more of these off the wall ideas. Out of madness might come genius.


View PostEricK, on 2012-June-28, 20:43, said:

I thought the OP was going to be about using 2NT to show 5/5 in majors OR 5/5 in minors. It fits in well with using a multi 2, and 2 and 2 to show 5M5m. And it's not so easy to defend against this 2NT than one which shows just the minors (or just the majors).


This idea of yours is certainly not what I had in mind. If you use 2NT to show 8-12 HCP and 5/5 in the minors OR 5/5 in the majors, doesn’t that fall into Brown Sticker Conventions? What would you suggest as a continuation bidding structure with this?

1. Responder doesn’t know which combination opener is holding and would need to start off choosing his better minor suit fit.
2. Holding 5/5 in the majors, opener will now bid 3 as Pass/Correct.

BTC had a sequence to explore for game via the 3 bid. How would game exploration take place using this idea of yours?

You might be onto something new and “off the wall” here as suggested by fromageGB.
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#9 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-June-30, 21:51

View PostEricK, on 2012-June-28, 20:43, said:

I thought the OP was going to be about using 2NT to show 5/5 in majors OR 5/5 in minors.

Me too.

2NT to show the majors is probably better than 2 to show both majors on the hands where it occurs (except when you get to play in 2M), but what do you give up...?
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#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-June-30, 22:25

View PostEricK, on 2012-June-28, 20:43, said:

I thought the OP was going to be about using 2NT to show 5/5 in majors OR 5/5 in minors.



Now there's an idea whose time has perhaps come...is it Brown Sticker, as suggested above, and where is it permitted?
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#11 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-June-30, 22:55

I think I'm going to jump on a chess forum and start the following threads:

"Nimzo-Indian" - is it worth it? and

"Grunfeld"?
Hi y'all!

Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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#12 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-July-01, 03:13

View PostVampyr, on 2012-June-30, 22:25, said:

Now there's an idea whose time has perhaps come...is it Brown Sticker, as suggested above, and where is it permitted?


Yes. Australia, banned in EBU and ACBL
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#13 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-July-01, 09:33

View PostCthulhu D, on 2012-July-01, 03:13, said:

banned in EBU

Says who?
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#14 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-July-01, 09:50

View Postmgoetze, on 2012-July-01, 09:33, said:

Says who?

Allowed at Level 4 only
11 H 7 Mixing types
These regulations do permit a 2NT opening bid to have a mixture of strong and other
meanings at Level 4.
11 H 8 General
Two no trump openings may be played as any one or two of the following:
(a) Strong: Any combination of meanings provided that it promises a minimum
strength of ‘Extended Rule of 25’ (see 10 B 4).
(b) Any combination of meanings which either:
(1) includes one specified suit of at least four cards; or
(2) has a specification which does not include holding at least four cards in one
specified suit and does not include two-suiters where the same specified
suit is the longer suit.
Notes:
(i) Responder is expected to explore game possibilities if his hand justifies it
opposite the stronger types of his partner’s opening bid.
(ii) An example of item (b)(2) for clarification: it is permitted to play a 2NT opening
as ‘weak with a two-suiter in Spades and a minor, or both minors’; this would not
preclude a pair from opening such a bid on a hand that happened to have a third
suit of Hearts, since length in Hearts is not part of the specification. But it is not
permitted to play it as ‘either both majors or both minors’, since length in every
suit is part of the specification.
(iii) Note that there is no limit to the number of types of strong hand included under
(a), nor to the number of types included under (b) so long as the requirement (1)
is followed, or alternatively so long as the requirement (2) is followed.

The EBU in the orange book specifically at level 4, not sure about level 5.

Found the level 5 rule

11 R 3 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments
Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments may not be played, unless they are
permitted at EBU Level 4. The following conventions or treatments are categorised as
'Brown Sticker':
(a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that:
(1) could be weak (may by agreement be made with values below
average strength)
AND
(2) does not promise at least four cards in a known suit.

not permitted there either.

However these regulations apply only to a "weak hand". What constitutes a weak hand is open to question, it may be that if you play 9-12 (a 5-5 9 count can be opened 1 as is rule of 19) that you could argue this is not a weak bid.
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#15 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-July-01, 11:15

View PostCyberyeti, on 2012-July-01, 09:50, said:

Found the level 5 rule
{snip}
(a) Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that:
(1) could be weak (may by agreement be made with values below
average strength)
AND
(2) does not promise at least four cards in a known suit.

not permitted there either.

However these regulations apply only to a "weak hand". What constitutes a weak hand is open to question, it may be that if you play 9-12 (a 5-5 9 count can be opened 1 as is rule of 19) that you could argue this is not a weak bid.


The regulation is the WBF one and is a bit convoluted, but it is clear when you also look at the definitions. You have to have at least 10 HCP or to have a suit of at least AKQxxx not to be a weak hand. So you can play 10-13 if you want.
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-July-01, 11:27

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2012-July-01, 11:15, said:

The regulation is the WBF one and is a bit convoluted, but it is clear when you also look at the definitions. You have to have at least 10 HCP or to have a suit of at least AKQxxx not to be a weak hand. So you can play 10-13 if you want.

I looked at the orange book which said it couldn't be weaker than the average hand, the average hand is a 4432 10 count which is rule of 18, so it wasn't 100% clear to me. High card points weren't mentioned, but may be in the WBF version.
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#17 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-July-01, 11:37

View PostCyberyeti, on 2012-July-01, 11:27, said:

I looked at the orange book which said it couldn't be weaker than the average hand, the average hand is a 4432 10 count which is rule of 18, so it wasn't 100% clear to me. High card points weren't mentioned, but may be in the WBF version.


Orange Book 11 R 1:

Average Hand: a hand containing 10 high-card points (Milton Work) with no distributional values
Weak: high-card strength below that of an average hand

11 R 3 (a) exception (3) "AKQxxx(x) in a single suit is not a hand which is below average strength"

A real pedant would take issue with this, but it is pretty clear that it is intended to mean that the high card strength of an average hand is 10 HCP, and weak is any hand with fewer HCP.
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#18 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-July-01, 15:02

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2012-July-01, 11:37, said:

Orange Book 11 R 1:

Average Hand: a hand containing 10 high-card points (Milton Work) with no distributional values
Weak: high-card strength below that of an average hand

11 R 3 (a) exception (3) "AKQxxx(x) in a single suit is not a hand which is below average strength"

A real pedant would take issue with this, but it is pretty clear that it is intended to mean that the high card strength of an average hand is 10 HCP, and weak is any hand with fewer HCP.

OK, that's pretty clear, if somewhat illogical given how 1 bids are defined.
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#19 User is offline   chasetb 

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Posted 2012-July-01, 16:43

I think 2NT for the Majors is horrid, and that's the second biggest reason I don't play Symmetric (by Andrei Sharko). I've had several telephone numbers opening 12-14 HCP hands with 5-5+ Majors 1 (almost every time, we ended up in 2 and a 5-2 fit, but was the best place). Why would I want to be forced at least a level higher, and give them several ways to double for penalty?
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#20 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2012-July-01, 18:35

I recommend 2N = 5+ & 5+ other., strength ATV. It works fine, it is good fun, and it conforms with convention-licensing for lots of UK events.
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