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Multi two diamonds please explain convention

#1 User is offline   tezza 

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Posted 2004-November-16, 01:00

Hi There
This is my first post to the list. I have been playing for a few years and have just joined up with BBO and have some questions.
I would like to know exactly what a hand requires to open 2 diamonds and also the normal response to this opening with various shape and sized hands. Also what is the opener's re-bid with a large hand and its shape requirements.
Many thanks, Tezza.
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2004-November-16, 03:43

Hi Tezza, and welcome,

There are 1001 versions of the "Multi" convention so I predict that the answers you well get here will be very confusing!

If you are serious about multi, you should find a good book that describes a multi version that fits your bidding system. (For example, the issue of whether to include a strong minor-suit variant depends on whether you can comfortably open strong hands at the one-level). I wrote a short summary on Bridgeguys
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#3 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-November-16, 03:48

Hi, welcome :P

Multi 2 usually shows one of several hand types:
- standard weak two in a Major
- strong NT (24+HCP or so)
- GF singlesuiter (some play GF 3-suiter, or only GF in a minor)
It depends on your preferences what you play exactly.

Suppose you play this version, with NT 24+ and all singlesuiter GF hands.

Responses are always made opposite a weak hand in a Major, because that's the most frequent:

2 = pass or correct - pass with , bid 2 with , 2NT with the big balanced hand or 3X with a GF singlesuiter
2 = pass or correct - pass with , bid 3 with , 2NT with the big balanced hand or 3X with a GF singlesuiter, 4 with the GF singlesuiter
2NT = forcing, usually strong hand which wants to investigate
3M = pass or correct
4 = pass or correct (some play this natural to play)
4 = to play

After 2 - 2NT; ? (this is quite standard)
3 = medium or maximum with (3 invites)
3 = medium or maximum with (3 invites)
3M = minimum with M
3NT = big balanced hand
4X = GF singlesuiter
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#4 User is offline   Gerben47 

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Posted 2004-November-16, 04:40

It is a nice convention but let me add a word of warning. Be sure to discuss all the relevant sequences when you decide to play this, especially after interference.

Here are some important ones:

2 (Dbl) Pass = I have 5+ , how about playing here
Rdbl = I am strong, have something in and think I can double them
Other = As before

2 (2 in major) Dbl = Pass if you have this major, otherwise bid your major. This is very nice if you have 3 cards in and they overcall 2. Partner can ALSO have have the so bidding 3 is very dangerous but you can bid dbl instead.

If they bid higher a double is a penalty double (but can be based on assurance that partner has a 6-card trump suit against them).
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#5 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2004-November-16, 06:58

Some play a variant known as mini-multi (commonly found in strong club systems) where the only options are the weak 2 in either major. This allows more flexibility as there's no danger of pre-empting partner, and 2D can be passed.

2D (P)

2H = pass/correct
2S = pass with spades, bid a feature with hearts
2NT = strong enquiry
3C/D = forcing
3H/S = pass/correct
4C = please bid the suit below your major (so I can play it)
4D = please bid your major
4H/S = to play

In the UK most people use the 20-22 balanced option in the multi, so a 2NT opening can be used as something else (usually both minors, or a bad pre-empt in a minor). Alteratively a strong 4441 hand (which are incredibly difficult to bid) can go through multi 2D
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Posted 2004-November-16, 07:26

Hi Tezza,

Welcome to the bridge base forum. We hope you become a frequent participant.

Multi-2D is a convention to allow you to describe mulitple hands iwth a single bid. The core part of multi 2d is it shows a weak two in one, or the other major. On top of this are are variants that include one or more of the following hands as well..

1) Big balanced hand - my favotire range here is 22-24, but some play less like 20-21

2) strong hand and 4-4-4-1 (any singleton)

3) Strong "acol-like" two bid in either minor

With 2D showing any major two suiter, it free's up 2H and 2S opening bid to be whatever you want. You can play it as minimum opening bid with that major and a minor, you can play it as less than opening bid, with that suit and another. Whatever you mind can create.

As for the response schedule, you have to take into account what strong variants you also include along with the weak two in tha major. The primary principle of responding is the princpal of a "paradox bid". See.. http://www.cavendish...dge/paradox.htm

Since I send you to the cavendish webpage, I will recommend that you read his (Chirs Ryall) write up on multi-2D. It is as reasonable place to start as any, although his responding strucutre is a little non-standard, I think it is best. Here is a link to his write up on multi-2D, and you don't ahve to buy any book to read it....

Ryall's multi 2D link
--Ben--

#7 User is offline   OrShoham 

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Posted 2004-November-16, 07:51

A particularly fun varient of the multi 2d:
1) Weak 2 opener in H or S
2) Strong 4-4-4-1 with a short major (rebid 2nt)
3) 5-5 or better in the minors, weak (rebid 3c)
4) Strong 4-4-4-1 with a short minor (rebid 3d)

Why this variant? It was developed to work with preemptive transfers - 2NT through 3H transfer to 3C through 3S, respectively. It is arguable whether this is a winning method, but it certainly creates variance in results and keeps things interesting. The 2H and 2S are freed up to describe 5-5 hands, allowing any 5-5 preemptive shape to be opened at the 2 level for maximum interference value.

This variant is rare, and I'd be surprised if you ran into anyone playing it, though. Just thought I'd post it for the sake of entertainment :)
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Posted 2004-November-16, 08:56

OrShoham, on Nov 16 2004, 09:51 AM, said:

A particularly fun varient of the multi 2d:
1) Weak 2 opener in H or S
2) Strong 4-4-4-1 with a short major (rebid 2nt)
3) 5-5 or better in the minors, weak (rebid 3c)
4) Strong 4-4-4-1 with a short minor (rebid 3d)

This variant is rare, and I'd be surprised if you ran into anyone playing it, though. Just thought I'd post it for the sake of entertainment :)

So this works for you?

Your partner can't jump to 3 or 4 as pass/correct with both major fit, as you might not have majors, and when you don't you will most frequently be weak. Nor can he jump in minors to preempt there, as you might be weak in the majors. So your partner is sort of stuck with keeping the bidding very low.

Second, your version of multi would be, I think, ruled illegal by most national bridge organizations. The reason being that multi two bids that allowed by WBF policy are ones that include may be weak in either major and has no other weak possibilities; it may have 'several' strong meanings. I would of course be happy for you to play it against me, but it seems not so productive as you totally lose the concept of using paradox raises.

Ben
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#9 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2004-November-16, 11:02

As a Yank, we don't play much multi, much as I'd like to.

I would say if you sit down with a partner on BBO who says "Lets play Multi" it means the following:

2 - Weak 2 in a major
2 major - 5 in the major and 5 in a minor (2 could be /)
2N - 5-5 minors; less than opening.

The responses to 2:

2, 3 or 4 of a major - pass or correct.
2N: asking: 3 - min with , 3 - min with , 3 / 3 = max.
4 - "Transfer" me into your suit pard.

There's a 2N response to the 2 of a major call too.

I have a pretty cool system I use in response to the 2N opening. If you want the structure, ask and I'll post it,

I'm sure a lot more players will check in and tell me that this isn't standard :) .
"Phil" on BBO
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#10 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2004-November-16, 11:21

Quote

I would say if you sit down with a partner on BBO who says "Lets play Multi" it means the following:

2♦ - Weak 2 in a major
2 major - 5 in the major and 5 in a minor (2♠ could be ♥/♠)
2N - 5-5 minors; less than opening.

The responses to 2♦:

2, 3 or 4 of a major - pass or correct.
2N: asking: 3♣ - min with ♥, 3♦ - min with ♠, 3♥ / 3♠ = max.
4♣ - "Transfer" me into your suit pard.

With my regular F2F partner I play multi and muiderberg.
On BBO I avoid players that play multi because I don't know what it includes and what the responses are. And I would be surprised if more then 50% of multi on BBO is played as described above.

a story: Last weak I played multi on BBO. I opened 2 with weak 6card and alerted 2 as "multi". We played 2 contract. After the play one of opps complained that I had only 2 card and I said multi. :)
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Posted 2004-November-16, 12:03

pclayton, on Nov 16 2004, 01:02 PM, said:

As a Yank, we don't play much multi, much as I'd like to.

I would say if you sit down with a partner on BBO who says "Lets play Multi" it means the following:

2 - Weak 2 in a major
2 major - 5 in the major and 5 in a minor (2 could be /)
2N - 5-5 minors; less than opening.

The responses to 2:

2, 3 or 4 of a major - pass or correct.
2N: asking: 3 - min with , 3 - min with , 3 / 3 = max.
4 - "Transfer" me into your suit pard.

There's a 2N response to the 2 of a major call too.

I have a pretty cool system I use in response to the 2N opening. If you want the structure, ask and I'll post it,

I'm sure a lot more players will check in and tell me that this isn't standard :) .

Well, your way is reasonable popular... however, there is the death hand, which seems to come up all to often....Your partner opens multi 2 and you happen to hold a monster heart one suiter... something like these two real world examples from bbo.

Sorry... I like to keep 4 as "this is my suit", and I want to play exactly four hearts. So the paradox bid with both majors becomes 3NT, which says, I have support for both majors, please pass/correct (opener with the huge balanced hand can pass)....

Scoring: IMP


West North East South

 2    Pass  4[he[   Pass
 4    Pass  Pass  Pass

A club lead defeats 4. Better if 4 is to play.

 



Scoring: IMP


West North East South

 2    Pass  4[he[   Pass
 4    Pass  Pass  Pass

A club lead defeats 4. Better if 4 is to play.

 


Scoring: IMP


West North East South

 2    Pass  4[he[   Pass
 4    Pass  Pass  Pass

A club lead defeats 4. Better if 4 is to play.

 


Full responses I like...

2NT asking bid,
2NT/2H/2S/3H/3S = pass correct
3NT = 4-4 in majors, pass/correct
4C/4D = 5H/4S and 5S/4H pass/correct kind of thing, but I could take transfer to your major if you insist.
--Ben--

#12 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2004-November-16, 13:38

pclayton, on Nov 16 2004, 05:02 PM, said:

I would say if you sit down with a partner on BBO who says "Lets play Multi" it means the following:

2 - Weak 2 in a major
2 major - 5 in the major and 5 in a minor (2 could be /)
2N - 5-5 minors; less than opening.

If it is allowed in your area (and it probably isn't!) then you might want to make 2NT mean both minors OR both majors. This retains a bid for all 5/5 hands, but makes the 2NT harder to defend against (as you play it they have 2 cuebids) and gives the 2 opening slightly more definition.

Eric
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#13 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2004-November-16, 14:40

EricK, on Nov 16 2004, 11:38 AM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 16 2004, 05:02 PM, said:

I would say if you sit down with a partner on BBO who says "Lets play Multi" it means the following:

2 - Weak 2 in a major
2 major - 5 in the major and 5 in a minor (2 could be /)
2N - 5-5 minors; less than opening.

If it is allowed in your area (and it probably isn't!) then you might want to make 2NT mean both minors OR both majors. This retains a bid for all 5/5 hands, but makes the 2NT harder to defend against (as you play it they have 2 cuebids) and gives the 2 opening slightly more definition.

Eric

Not allowed. I've even been asked by a world champion before to provide a suggested defense against 5-5 minors 2N (he was playing with a client and we were trouncing him). I was too polite to tell him that its GCC :) and gave him the one we use. Didn't matter; the client would have butchered it anyway.

Don't know that I care about such a treatment (either majors or minors) - I don't like to preempt when I have both majors and I don't like a lot of 2 way meanings to a high level preempt like this. If partner can jam 4th seat with a minor suit preempt, lets do it. Otherwise we have to kill a round of bidding to fish out our suits.

I suppose its fine to jam the bidding if I have support for either a major or a minor suit - kind of a CRASH concept - but if I don't I'm going slow. With CRASH OTOH, we already know that a big hand exists at the table, and it ain't one of ours :) .
"Phil" on BBO
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#14 User is offline   agram 

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Posted 2004-November-16, 22:04

Thanks everyone for the input. There has been a debate within our Club regarding the re-bid by opener of 2NT after a 2D opening. While I understand people can play any system they choose I strongly disagree with one system being used in our Club which shows 19-21 points ANY SHAPE. I contend that the 2NT should approximate the old 2NT opening which can be 21-22, 23-24, but hand MUST BE BALANCED. I'm very pleased to see that the expert advice I have received confirms my thoughts. Special thanks, I love being right!!!!
Tezza.
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