BBO Discussion Forums: Do you dare? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Do you dare? Entering the auction vulnerable

Poll: Do you dare? (42 member(s) have cast votes)

Your call?

  1. Pass (33 votes [78.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 78.57%

  2. Double (4 votes [9.52%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.52%

  3. 1NT (5 votes [11.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.90%

  4. Other (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,445
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2012-June-07, 16:12

IMPs



Note to self: jschafer may or may not owe me a drink.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#2 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,432
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Vancouver #1 city in the world :)
  • Interests:Bridge, skiing

Posted 2012-June-07, 16:35

I hate it but I pass, voted for double by mistake.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#3 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,604
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2012-June-07, 17:00

If Partner is trained to ignore your doubles upon further competition, then double if you have no green cards and cannot borrow.

If your agreement is penalty doubles (thus alerted), then no, it isn't one.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#4 User is offline   bluecalm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,555
  • Joined: 2007-January-22

Posted 2012-June-07, 17:08

I don't know :)
Intuitively pass but I see many ways it can backfire (1S - p - 1N - p 2S p p p and we are cold for 6H opposite Axxxxx of h and nothing more while even defeating 2S is questionable).
0

#5 User is offline   chasetb 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 677
  • Joined: 2009-December-20
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Podunk, backwater USA

Posted 2012-June-07, 17:32

I vote for 1NT. There's no way I can double on this hand, and while I fully understand Pass, my partners never play me for 15 HCP, let alone 13 or 14 HCP if I pass the first time. It's also a bidder's game, so I will try to scare my opponents out of a possible game their way if it exists.

EDIT - Now, move a Diamond honor to the Heart suit, and then I hate all my options, Pass probably being the least disgusting of them all. Then I KNOW partner will have the minors and shortness in the Majors, so I'll give the opponents a little rope and hope they hang themselves.
"It's not enough to win the tricks that belong to you. Try also for some that belong to the opponents."

"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."

"One advantage of bad bidding is that you get practice at playing atrocious contracts."

-Alfred Sheinwold
1

#6 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,432
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Vancouver #1 city in the world :)
  • Interests:Bridge, skiing

Posted 2012-June-07, 17:45

View Postchasetb, on 2012-June-07, 17:32, said:

There's no way I can double on this hand, and while I fully understand Pass, my partners never play me for 15 HCP, let alone 13 or 14 HCP if I pass the first time.

Director!
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#7 User is offline   CSGibson 

  • Tubthumper
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,829
  • Joined: 2007-July-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, OR, USA
  • Interests:Bridge, pool, financial crime. New experiences, new people.

Posted 2012-June-07, 18:00

I don't have a strong preference between pass and 1N, but I'd probably bid 1N at the table, especially if playing against a pair that regularly opens semi-aggressively. There's some benefit to telling your whole story early in the auction, you don't have to make hard decisions later at higher levels.
Chris Gibson
0

#8 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,141
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-June-07, 18:17

Definitely pass, we have hcp but no tricks. This isn't even close for me, very surprised to see the votes for 1N.

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-June-07, 17:08, said:

I don't know :)Intuitively pass but I see many ways it can backfire (1S - p - 1N - p 2S p p p and we are cold for 6H opposite Axxxxx of h and nothing more while even defeating 2S is questionable).

I have bigger worries than my opponents deciding to play in my 5-card suit while my partner's 6-card suit is supposed to be opposite my 4-card suit, not my singleton. If we have a 10-card heart fit, we may still find it after passing...
Disclaimer: this post is not intended to offend anyone who spews constant drivel. --PhilKing
0

#9 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,445
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2012-June-07, 18:33

View Postcherdano, on 2012-June-07, 18:17, said:

I have bigger worries than my opponents deciding to play in my 5-card suit while my partner's 6-card suit is supposed to be opposite my 4-card suit, not my singleton. If we have a 10-card heart fit, we may still find it after passing...

I think you missed the point: if it's even possible to miss slam, how much easier must it be to miss game?
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#10 User is offline   Phil 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,352
  • Joined: 2008-December-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County, CA
  • Interests:Running.

Posted 2012-June-07, 18:48

No bid!
Where there's ink there's squid Phil.
0

#11 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,141
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-June-07, 20:02

View Postmgoetze, on 2012-June-07, 18:33, said:

I think you missed the point: if it's even possible to miss slam, how much easier must it be to miss game?

But we are not missing game! If we have a big heart fit, they will bid clubs and we can make a takeout double.

If you are this worried about missing game, you probably think this hand is better than it is.
Disclaimer: this post is not intended to offend anyone who spews constant drivel. --PhilKing
0

#12 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 618
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2012-June-07, 23:41

I think this is a clear pass.

Even if opener is extremely aggressive you rate to have at least 25 points between your hand and opener's hand. That leaves about a max of 15 between the other 2 hands. If the points are evenly split, the hand is likely a part score hand. If partner has enough values for game than responder probably doesn't have enough to make a call and partner will be able to balance.
1

#13 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,793
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2012-June-08, 02:39

Obvious pass to me.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#14 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,428
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2012-June-08, 03:35

I think pass is obvious too. It's certainly possible to miss a 10-card heart fit - the shapes around the table might, for example, be 1246, 1633, 6133 - but I'm not going to keep spending vulnerable undertricks whilst I wait for that hand to turn up.
A poster: How would you continue?
JAllerton: I continue by inspecting the vulnerability and form of scoring. Then I remind myself of what methods I am playing.
0

#15 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 219
  • Joined: 2008-November-20
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:sailing, bridge

Posted 2012-June-08, 05:55

An absolute pass for me. I'd like them going down 3 or 4 if 1 becomes the final contract.
0

#16 User is offline   TimG 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,949
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA

Posted 2012-June-08, 10:14

View Postbluecalm, on 2012-June-07, 17:08, said:

I don't know :)
Intuitively pass but I see many ways it can backfire (1S - p - 1N - p 2S p p p and we are cold for 6H opposite Axxxxx of h and nothing more while even defeating 2S is questionable).

Partner just might balance with short spades and Ace-sixth of hearts.
0

#17 User is offline   ArtK78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,916
  • Joined: 2004-September-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Galloway NJ USA
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
    Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.

Posted 2012-June-08, 10:52

Pass.

Second choice - Pass.

Really, those green cards are in the bidding box for a reason.

Pass is not a 4-letter word (OK, it is a 4-letter word, but not that kind of 4-letter word).
0

#18 User is offline   wank 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,453
  • Joined: 2008-July-13

Posted 2012-June-08, 15:16

i would expect to find myself on the passing side of such a debate, but this hand is just too good for suit play - partner is overruffing lho in spades where we have very little soft defensive values.

so yes i'd bid 1nt to get my strength across, if not my shape.

i'm not worried about being sawn off - partner must have short spades and should have somewhere to run to if we get cracked.

oh and if i'm wrong and it does get crunched and partner doesn't run, i'll run to 2c and (hopefully) blue it.
0

#19 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,445
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2012-June-09, 10:36

The pass brigade will be happy to hear that I went for 500:



At the other table, the enemy had solid agreements on runouts, whereas our teammates didn't:


The combined total cost was 12 IMPs.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#20 User is offline   JLOGIC 

  • 2011 Poster of The Year winner
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,002
  • Joined: 2010-July-08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-June-09, 12:10

Got what you deserved. Other guys didn't, unlucky :P

Your 1N is really just understrength. Having 5 of their 5 card suit makes your hand much worse, you have no potential to set up spade tricks like you do with most 5 card suits. Having all of your honors in short suits is obviously bad, they don't help you set up tricks as much as usual. Even your 4 card suit is just Kxxx! Add that to the fact that you only have 15, your hand is just not worth 1N. Your spade values are not even positional, it's the jack. Having a stiff club is a negative, it's possible partner will compete in clubs or overestimate his clubs. And having 5 of their suit is bad when you have such a bad hand because if you get doubled you will often have nowhere to run (as here).

It's true our hand is much better for hearts than NT, but if the opps bid clubs (eg 1S p 1N P 2C seems likely) you can at least double and get your side in much more safely with more chance of playing in a fit (and possibly get a penalty if it is their misfit). If they keep bidding your long suits, well that's good, you will get to defend vulnerable with their suits breaking badly when you rate to not make anything. Forget about going for numbers, even going -100 when you could have gone +200 is extremely expensive and not unlikely (1S 1N AP instead of defending 2S).

I would just expect to get too high too often by overcalling 1N (when partner bids 3N), I'd expect a disaster some non-negligible percentage of the time when they nail me, I'd expect to lose many many partscore swings all vul which will be very expensive because I declare 1N or 3C instead of defending, and I'd expect to miss 4H sometimes (though I'd still get to it sometimes after 1S P 1N p 2C X). The loss of r/r partscore swings frequently occuring is what is really bad.
1

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users